Say it Sister...
Lucy and Karen, two 40-somethings, are always chatting about life, and all that it has to throw at them, and now want to share their raw, honest conversations with you. Their journey of self-discovery and healing is something many of us can relate to. We all possess a unique power within us, but life’s trials often knock us off course. They have the tools, the courage to speak up and simply say it as it is, so you might feel seen, and understood and gain practical tools and techniques for self-discovery and personal growth during the changes we experience.
Say it Sister...
Reclaiming Voices: Confronting Everyday Sexism part 2 and Empowering Equality
Ever wondered how everyday sexism shapes the lives of women around you? In this powerful episode, we dive into the alarming statistic that 86% of women face street harassment, inspired by a moving TikTok video from the Mayor of West Yorkshire. We share personal stories and compelling examples to highlight the impact of these experiences and discuss how open conversations, education, and awareness are essential to combat this societal issue. We also explore the coping mechanisms women develop to navigate daily sexism and emphasize the need for collective courage and support.
Have you ever felt the pressure to balance career success with domestic responsibilities? Join us as we unpack how gender roles influence personal relationships and professional environments. Through my own experience of unconsciously dimming my ambitions to fit into a traditional dynamic, we discuss the challenges women face in striving for equality at home and work. We also touch on the normalization of these roles and how subtle yet pervasive sexism manifests in the workplace. By sharing these stories, we aim to encourage listeners to seek out equal partnerships that empower their dreams and ambitions.
Ready to reclaim your voice and set professional boundaries? We provide practical techniques for navigating power dynamics and fostering a respectful, inclusive environment. Drawing wisdom from influential authors like Glennon Doyle and insights from "The Authority Gap," we reveal how curiosity, strategic questioning, and clear communication can empower women to speak up with confidence. We also delve into the importance of trusting your instincts, setting boundaries, and avoiding the fear of missing out. Tune in to learn how to elevate conversations on everyday sexism and champion equality in all aspects of life.
Hello and welcome to the Say it Sister podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm Lucy and I'm Karen, and we're thrilled to have you here. Our paths crossed years ago on a shared journey of self-discovery, and what we found was an unshakable bond and a mutual desire to help others heal and live their very best lives.
Speaker 1:For years, we've had open, honest and courageous conversations, discussions that challenged us, lifted us and sometimes even brought us to tears. We want to share those conversations with you. We believe that by letting you into our world, you might find the courage to use your voice and say what really needs to be said in your own life.
Speaker 2:Whether you're a woman seeking empowerment, a self-improvement enthusiast or someone who craves thought-provoking dialogue, join us, as we promise to bring you real, unfiltered conversations that encourage self-reflection and growth.
Speaker 1:So join us as we explore, question and grow together. It's time to say say it, sister.
Speaker 2:Welcome and before we get into today's topic, I want to celebrate how many comments we've received from many different places all around the world that have said how much they've loved this new podcast. We are so excited and happy and we feel verified, and it's this idea of sisters supporting sisters and that vibe is such a great feeling on the inside of our bodies, isn't it, lucy?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's just amazing, because we've been having these conversations for years and we know how much we love chatting and talking and we had this inkling that this is important and other people would probably love to have a conversation, because it was just like two best friends having a chat about meaningful stuff. So when we're now getting these, um, these beautiful words and comments and people taking the time to comment, um, yeah, it just, it validates us but also just feels like we're really being held, that we've just got, you know, the sisterhood all putting their arms around us, it's a beautiful feeling yay, and today we're going to talk about and continue the conversation about everyday sexism, which is a really hot topic and a really important topic for us to discuss.
Speaker 1:We want to do it from a storytelling, but also practical place yeah, so it's about elevating the conversation, I guess, um, and do you know what? I'm becoming so aware that this conversation about everyday sexism and, uh, what it is to be a woman in the world today is everywhere. Everywhere I look, there seems to be really unexpected people talking and sharing content. And just this morning, as I was scrolling through my phone, an ex-colleague of mine shared a video from the mayor of West Yorkshire, so it was a TikTok video, so if you want to go and look at it, it was at Mayor WY and it showed a load of male actors replicating everyday sexism and it really hit home. But the stat that was there at the end was that 86% of women experience some sexism on the streets of our country, and you know that's 86% of women who have at one point been stopped in their tracks. They've had that feeling of whether it's shame or embarrassment, a sense of something's not okay. Ultimately, this rush of fear. So, yeah, we need to really elevate this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it just has to start somewhere, doesn't it? It has to start with conversations, it has to start with education and awareness and to really listen to what's happening on the inside of us. For me, the uncomfortable feeling, it's like the cringy, and I can feel it already in my body. As soon as I say the word uncomfortable, my body's like oh hello.
Speaker 1:I know that in my throat and you.
Speaker 2:You know we get used to being uncomfortable, so we live with that feeling often, but that doesn't make it okay and it's a feeling that we need to listen to and I feel like it's one of the main ones that comes up with everyday sexism. And while we listen to what's happening on the inside, we're also checking out what's happening around us. We know what is in the space, what are the rules of engagement? Because there's so many rules that are not spoken out loud because they're ridiculous and nobody would really be, you know that brazen often to actually say what the rules are, so we have to go to be like in a detective. So we've got to go in and and go hold on what's happening here. How am I? How am I? What's happening here? How am I? How am I feeling? What's in the space? What rule is being upheld here that I, that nobody's told me about?
Speaker 2:And let's get really clear on that and let's get to the point of actually what is truly happening. Because if somebody is like making suggestive comments towards me, then I'm going to feel uncomfortable but I also want to tackle it. I also want to acknowledge that it's happening, because otherwise it's a huge build-up that happens, and that's definitely been. You know my life story up until um you know the last few years. What about you, lucy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's really interesting that, um, each one of us will have found our own coping mechanisms, um, and you know they are so layered, um, and so we can all offer advice, and you know I can say, oh, I'd have said this or I've done that and that won't have that. That won't work for you, um. Equally, your approach to things won't work for me. All the time, however, the more that we are raising our voices and speaking about this stuff publicly, with our best friends at work, wherever we are actually, we'll all get little bits of um courage, bits of advice, little nuggets of information, thinking, oh yeah, I could have handled it that way. And then we start finding our own words, our own approach, um, just so that we can respond, either in the moment, later on. However, you need to respond, but you respond what? In a way that is true to you but also safe for you.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's what came up for me, yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like you know, if one person's feeling something, then the likelihood is there's more people feeling it and it takes to sort of name it to say sorry. Can you clarify that for me? What, what did you mean by that comment? Or actually I don't agree with what you're saying. That doesn't work for me at all.
Speaker 2:Um, let's talk about it, you know, and then more people like to step in. And actually, you know, because it's like that elephant in the room someone said something or done something that is deeply uncomfortable and someone names it and then it's like okay, here we are, you know it's there, everyone's feeling something, but everyone's like you know who's gonna, is anyone gonna name this? So we're just gonna kind of ignore it. And I think the ignoring um approaches can be really, can really be helpful in some situations. If you're in danger, you kind of want to get out of there. You don't want to be fronting into something that that is really gonna, you know, lead you down a battle that you can't win, but there are times when you want to be facing it and you want to be fronting it out. So, um, yeah, I just wanted to share that.
Speaker 1:Really, that elephant in the room thing is definitely true for me and I think what's um, what we need to call in is almost like the more powerful voices to go first, to be the leaders in these situations. So some of them will be our male allies, because sometimes it's not safe for women to speak up, whether it's in a meeting or in a public space, or if you're in a pub or a bar, you might need a man to do that because unfortunately, their voices are still heard more than women's often. Sometimes it might be that female leader or somebody in a position of power who can advocate or be that voice for you to set those ground rules. And sometimes it might be somebody our age, somebody a little bit older, speaking up or intervening for the younger sisters out there. And you know, it's the fact that me now, in my age that I'm in, I don't I don't have the same fears as what I did when I'm in my twenties. I've learned more tools and techniques. So by me stepping in and role modeling it, hopefully it'll give other people that that you know. Ah, that's how I can respond in that situation.
Speaker 1:And, interestingly, I'm giving all of this advice to my daughters whenever they come home and tell me about something that's happened, and I'm modeling it, when I'm with my brother and he makes a sexist joke, or I'm with my family environment, and one of the classics that I always share with them if somebody makes a real sexist joke is just look at them with that typical you know um dumb blonde attitude and say I'm really sorry, I don't understand that. Can you explain it to me? And it's brilliant, because they either realize they've said something really sexist or they actually do try and um explain it and then they dig themselves into a hole. So there's lots of different ways and we're going to come on to some other techniques, but that one's classic just play the dumb blonde back to them, um brilliant what?
Speaker 2:yeah, I love that like digging a hole and getting in it and you know you kind of like yeah, talk to the words and then just leave them to it.
Speaker 1:And yeah, they keep digging.
Speaker 2:I mean we are laughing, but this is, this is a serious thing because it does erode over time and it certainly doesn't, you know, help women to feel empowered and we're all about feminine empowerment, um. But it's amazing how these things can almost like slide and slip into relationships, even with people that you're in serious relationships with. And I want to talk about a time when I was about 35, maybe a little bit younger than that, so like early, like getting into my mid-30s, and I met, I did the dating app thing and I met a guy on a dating app and he was a really good guy, you know, seemed lovely and all the rest of it, and so we, you know, went into a relationship together and we were starting to get very serious and have serious conversations, sort of planning into the future. But there was something in me, instinctually, that just wanted to really know if this was a good match for me, like a real long-term match. Clearly there was something happening, happening with my instincts now.
Speaker 2:At the time I was at the very top of my corporate career and I was like head of communications for for Santa. I was going all around the world and I was doing like red carpets, at the Oscars, all the London Fashion Week, new York Fashion Week Week. I was literally high flying and really, really successful. And that wasn't. It wasn't something that I'd really thought about how that would impact my partner. But when we first met he said to me oh, you're much more high profile than I am, you're much more like you know, you're much, you're on a higher level than me. And I hadn't thought what level he was on, because that wasn't something that I was considering or even thinking about. It was clearly more of a man's thing. I think I'm going to give it a name. And he was also very successful as well. So he had a good job and all the rest of it. So I went away.
Speaker 2:It was why I later thought that's such a strange thing to say to a woman like that. I was more elevated than him and what I started to do I think unconsciously in the beginning, was actually step down a bit. I started to sort of dim myself a little bit more and I even started to think well, he could be, I can have the children and he can, you know, be the breadwinner. If we're going to give it that name, you know, and we'll set our stalls out in that way and I didn't even wasn't even thinking about my career anymore and I worked really hard to get to this point. I was really good at what I did and it was amazing how I started to sort of like play into this unspoken, because it wasn't anything that was spoken about as such. It wasn't like named, like you'll have the children and stay at home and I'll go. So we we never had that conversation. I started and I was it got to a point where I was like what am I doing here? You know, I woke up, which was brilliant.
Speaker 2:There's nothing wrong with, you know, going off to have children. Not working. I cannot. I'm not saying that's the wrong thing, but that's not my approach to life. I've got dreams and ambitions and it's really important for me to do something I believe in and have a purpose, like empowering women is my purpose and I put energy into that, and I'm also a mother now, but I'm with a man who, you know, empowers me, supports me, handles the things that needs to be handled, so that I can go do whatever I might need to do, and we support each other. You know, it's like an equal partnership as opposed to like this old fashioned Victorian partnership. It's like an equal partnership as opposed to like this old fashioned Victorian partnership.
Speaker 2:And the moment where I was like, ok, I've got to this is not working for me, he said to me when I come home from work, I'll need space away from the children. And I was like are you serious? Is that a real? Is this really serious? Like you're not joking. And he was like no, no, no, I won't be able to just click from work into like family. And I was like can you imagine having some children at home? And and, oh, daddy, you can't be around daddy at the moment because he's, you know, decompressing or whatever.
Speaker 2:I was like and then I just went for I just was basically like I challenged him to the point where he broke up with me because I was like, if this is what's happening, I am not. I was literally digging. I was so confrontational. I just took on a different form at that point which was not like me at all, because I'm very much a harmonizing type person. But, um, I wanted to get clear on what was going on on the inside and it broke the relationship up. Thank god, um, you know when I was able to have a relationship with somebody that you know really supported me and saw me. So for me that's it's a form of everyday sexism, because it's so gender typed. But there's no freedom for the, there was no freedom for the feminine or for a woman to, you know, go out and actually live a life that she wanted to live, that I wanted to live that she wanted to live, that I wanted to live.
Speaker 1:And you know, it's really interesting because I've had two major relationships in my life and in both of them I was the higher wage earner and I was also expected to be the main nurturer, organiser, party planner, christmas day planner, child taxi, blah, blah, blah. And he was, well, my husband. He was fantastic compared to a lot of other men, but he wasn't an equal partner. So he would maybe cook the Sunday dinner and he's cooking. Oh, isn't it lovely that your husband cooks? I'm like, no, he cooks one meal a week and, due to my work, he would take my youngest to nursery in the morning and I would pick up.
Speaker 1:But then, from the minute I picked up, I was doing all of the chores and and it used to cause quite a lot of conflict, actually this everyday sexism, division of labor, because by the time I put the kids to bed, you know it was about eight o'clock or something. I was exhausted because I hadn't had any downtime by this stage and he'd want to obviously connect with me or be intimate with me and I actually just wanted to go to bed. Um, and so, actually the everyday sexism. Um, it's well, we take on too much of a load if it's not like the relationship you've got now, um, where it's equal, because you just kind of just normalize, you just fall into it and you were talking about, um, just like little comments that were made or you know things that you were sensing. And it brings me back to a memory that I had in the workplace. So we've talked about like everyday sexism on the streets, but also the everyday sexism in the workplace, and I actually went for a oh, this wasn't the one where I went for a promotion, this was just in one of my one-to-one feedback things and my male leader, who is absolutely a brilliant guy and I still hold him in high regard but he said to me that the problem is, lucy, no man has ever been told that they're too ambitious and all I wanted to do was do my job well and be recognised for it.
Speaker 1:But apparently that was too ambitious and I was so shocked at the time because I would have been about probably 25, 26. I'm so shocked I didn't know what to say or how to handle it. So I just sort of like I probably just looked and nodded and those words stay with me, me and now I have the words. I know exactly what I would have said and things like oh ambitious. Explain that to me, or can you give me an example? Or how is that different to my counterpart over here? So I'd have been more curious, a bit like the joke thing. Explain it. You know to me, um, I'd have used that technique, but how confusing is that. I mean, that's so incredibly confusing because as women we are like. You know to me, um, I'd have used that technique, but how confusing is that.
Speaker 2:I mean that's so incredibly confusing because, as women, we are like, you know, as you're growing up, you're like well, I need to be able to take care of myself. My mum said to me when I was a very, very young. She said don't ever let a man walk all over you. And I never forgot it. But she never really told me what a man walking all over me would look like, feel like, sound like, a be like. So it was like, you know, like I spent a long time wrestling with that one, like what is it? Is somebody walking all over me in this way? I mean, you know, because I was very young when she said it, so I almost felt like there's no way I can trust it, because the men are going to come in and walk all over me. So I must be independent and be able to provide for myself, and so, you know, we're sort of jumping ahead a little bit.
Speaker 2:But we, we are a generation of women that stepped into that feminine independence from a very sort of hardwired, ambitious. Um, you know, let's go place, because that's what we had to do in a way, and I suppose we were sort of making lives for ourselves. Um, you know, our parents lives were different to our lives and we had more freedom in a way. And, you know, jobs were readily available and you could if you worked hard at this point, generally speaking, you could be successful buy your own property, drive your own car and get promoted. You know, like the world was much more open. You could go out with your friends, have a great time. You didn't have to get married, um, you know, until you wanted to get married. So, like, life was different and we became we became almost like embodiments of that, but more from a masculine place, and so the idea of, like, you're too ambitious is so incredibly confusing. It's like what do you mean?
Speaker 1:because I was just being me and taking all the advice and the thing was I was reading management books, business books, leadership books, and I was just doing the stuff that you know sounded right. Interestingly, they were all written by men. So all the leadership books are written by men. And actually my dad gave me. When I got my first management job, my dad gave me a book. He said you're going to need this and it was called the Art of War and that's what you know. I was reading it and there were some interesting bits. I'm like I said I'm a social scientist, so I was picking it apart, but I was like none of this feels like the kind of place I want to be in or the leadership that I want to approach. But clearly I was acting in the ambitious way that these leadership male authors were telling me is the right way and they criticise because I'm too ambitious.
Speaker 2:It's funny because you're so opposite to me in that way, because I was reading, like the Louise Hayes, the Barbara Angelis and the Marianne Williamson, so like the feminine sort of put on, the healing sort of spiritual, you know, domains.
Speaker 2:I was reading those books, books which had such a profound impact on me, actually from being in my early 20s, and my first course I ever took was called Phenomenal Woman, led by an American woman and I think I was 21 and I remember sitting in this room and being like she is, like she had full on purple and bright lips and she was so out there and so American and but yet what she was saying was so profound that I walked away and something shifted in me in that moment and obviously, years and years later I ended up in this domain. But I feel like a seed was planted by you know those authors, that woman that said you can do it, you can be a phenomenal woman, but it was from a softer. There was like these seeds have been planted. That was much more soft and feminine, even though you know the phenomenal woman thing was much more like get out there and do it. So there was definitely that, you know, masculine.
Speaker 1:And I suppose my, my archetypes of women were the likes of Margaret Thatcher. I had Madonna, who I idolized, but she was out there, being, you know, being really out there. There was not a lot of softness, um, in her image that she was portraying. Um, and so, yeah, everywhere. I mean, the queen was obviously, you know, a huge head to stay, but she never expressed her own opinion, she just was dutiful, um did an amazing job, but a different kind of role model. So I was yeah, they were the kind of role models I was seeing in my um healing spiritual journey absolutely started around my 20s.
Speaker 1:But then, because I was thrown into this corporate world, um, that's where I became the alpha female and almost like, all of that femininity just went. It was like it was pushed aside because I had to survive. And it's only in the last, you know, 15 years that I'm like, ah, let's come back to self. And you know it was because I was facing sexism every single day, in the workplace, in the pubs, in the gyms, everywhere I went that I had to find a way to be in the world. And unfortunately now I see my daughters going out there in the world. The same sexism still exists, but what I'm really proud of is the fact that they've got different role models now.
Speaker 1:Yeah so they're learning a different way.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. There's an amazing book that I'm listening to at the moment called Unbound, and it's a woman's guide to power and choosing to ride into battle together as sisters. And it's incredible because the woman who's written it, she's called Kasia Urbanix. I'm probably not saying that right, she is a ex-dominatrix, but she's also a. She was also a Buddhist nun as well, so she comes at it from this place of, you know, being powerful and assertive, but also being submissive and I'm only so far in. But one of the tips that she talks about well, she talks about not being if you're powerful, you're not overpowering, you're not suppressing or controlling people, because that's not the sort of power that is genuinely powerful. Power comes from within, and it comes from within listening to the heart's desires and then building alignment and building relationships with others to find those spaces of alignment. And so she's talking about that, which is very now for us, the work that we do.
Speaker 2:But one of the tips that she has passed along, which I think is genius you know, when we're in those meetings and somebody says, like you're too ambitious, and you lose your voice and you don't know what to say. You know we all have many examples of that the best way to get your voice back is to ask a random question. So if you can't handle or not handle, that's not right. If you can't tackle what's been said because you're blindsided and you've gone into sort of retreat mode mode and your voice has gone, say to them I love your tie, where did you get it from? Or, um, you know what's your wife's, what's your wife's name again? Or your husband's name again, or whatever it might be. Just ask a random question, because what that does is it opens up the flow, communication from within, inside yourself. The voice is speaking, you get a chance to recover and the they get them put into the spotlight and it kind of throws them off a little bit like hold on a minute.
Speaker 1:I've said that and she's asking me about my tie or whatever, um, or my shoes you know what I mean, and it's like a really subtle way to grab a little bit of the power back just by raising your voice.
Speaker 2:I love that it's genius, isn't it? And I, I that's a really good one to just have in your back pocket for that, because you never know when these moments are going to come. So it's not like you're prepared, but you can be prepared with some little, you know little techniques and tools that you go that's my one that I'm going to use and the flow of power comes back into you.
Speaker 1:One of my favourite authors is Glennon Doyle, because she just speaks my language and she puts it in a way that is just so as though I'm talking to her, you know, across from me, and she speaks to something about being a little bit awkward but actually not being afraid to be awkward, and she says blessed are those brave enough to make things awkward, for they wake us up and move us forward. And I think that's the approach that I've gone with um, to raise my voice. And usually it's opening with curious, and so it's like. It's not like why, you know, which feels confrontational, but I'm really curious is just a way to say can you expand on that a little bit more? Or what, what perspective are you coming from? So it just opens up a discussion without the other party feeling like they're on the attack or they're being criticised, because let's not forget that the males all have their egos that they need to protect in those surroundings. So, again, it's a safe way to open it up. But, yeah, just just be a little bit awkward and just open or even say I'm really curious. I'm feeling a bit awkward about that comment you just made. Just be awkward.
Speaker 1:So I love that and, interestingly, I just want to share another book which is great for those, especially those women in the professional careers. It's called the Authority Gap and in that that there's this um, this whole piece about how, um, everyone says women talk too much, but the data and all the studies show that that's not true at all, because the shortest speaking man in most meetings talks more than the longest speaking woman. So again, it's just like if you need to comment about the tie, if you need to just ask a question with curiosity, do it because you need to get back in the conversation, because actually that's just everyday sexism right there in the meetings. Women don't have their voices and if they are there, often they're classed as the note takers or they'll be the ones who are given the job to organize the buffet or the catering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just, it's everywhere. You know, in my experience and this is also working in leadership teams with men it's the women that ask the best questions Because it's coming from an intuitive place and so when you're working within, you know, like the wider field of intuition, women know what to ask and they can, they can land a question and you know, and they can, they can land a question and you know, and they're the best questions and I, um, I stand by that and I know plenty of male senior leaders who will also agree with that and it's interesting because we are actually more silent.
Speaker 1:We are actually listening with more than just our ears or listening to respond. We're listening with our senses, we're reading the room, we're watching what's being said and not being said. So hence why it's informing us to ask the better questions, because they're more, almost inclusive and what I tend to find more strategic questions, whereas it's not about just ending of this meeting or what action needs to be done. We're thinking about the longer term because we've had time cognitively to process this before we speak. And I always say to people you know, slow down before you speed up, and it's that perfect thing. So sometimes, in that sense, the everyday sexism in meetings might actually work in our favour 100%.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's always, you know, there's light and dark and everything, as I always say, and it's like what can we actually do about it? And for me it's like that awareness and what this is showing up in my life. What is it doing in my life and what's not working for me anymore, you know, like what do I not want to do anymore or what do I not want, or what do I actually want to say about this? And to get really, really clear within ourselves, because if we're not clear about what we need or what we want to stop happening, it could be that then we can't really create the space where we can, you know, ask for it, demand it, depending on what it is. So it's that absolute sense of clarity. And, you know, if we've got children, like young girls as well, you know, for example, I used to be a huge hugger, but I don't really hug anymore.
Speaker 2:There's only certain people I'll hug, because I don't want people getting too close to me and I don't like the, the connection of the body thing.
Speaker 2:It's a bit like it's just too um, it's too invasive for me these days, and so I have to really think, I really think about it before I will go in for a hug with somebody and consider it.
Speaker 2:It's not like a given at all. Um, it's the same for Catalina, you know, like if, because there's so many people say, oh, give you know, a hug, a hug, and I'm like, no, she doesn't do hugs and it's that kind of thing. I don't do them either, really very, very rarely. So like, obviously, if she goes in to hug somebody and she's full open, um, that's a whole different thing because that's coming from her, she can make her decisions on that one. But it's like that, can I have a hug? And you know, it's all a bit awkward, and again it's that you know awkwardness that Glendon's talking about, but it's so right, it's like, oh yeah, I'm not feeling it, I'm just not feeling it, and then that's okay for us not to feel it. But that clarity of it's not something I'm willing to do unless it feels really good and really right.
Speaker 1:Um, and I guess we need to educate ourselves, that this feels awkward or I'm not feeling comfortable. So we've got to first, I guess, do the work on ourselves and figure out what is it that I want? Why did I feel icky in that moment? What was it that stopped me in my track? So do that reflective piece and learn and then speak it. And you might not be able to speak it in the moment, but you can practice the words, whether it's in the mirror saying to your friend and saying what I wanted to say was this, and they're like yeah, you should have said that, so it's confirming it. And then, uh, we need to educate the men, of course, don't we? Um, you know, so that they're understanding that sometimes it's their physical presence. Sometimes they do get a bit too close, sometimes the words that they use can just make us feel smaller, belittled, icky, whatever the word is. But they need to understand that, that impact that they have on us and it's the yes and no for me.
Speaker 2:I always go back to this simplicity because it can get quite loud in my brain and confusing in the space, and I'm like what's happening on it? Am I, it's my body, saying yes or is it saying no? And if, and sometimes I'm like what's happening on it, am I, it's my body, saying yes or is it saying no? And if, and sometimes I'm like I don't know, I can't make a decision, I don't know. And if I don't know, it's a no. Rather than trying to sort of like force a decision or get myself into a place to be a yes, I, you know, and I get invitations that will come in and people say to me do you want to come to this, do you want to come to that? And I'm like, oh no, I don't know, I don't know. Then I'll just say you know what it's a no, because if I don't know, it means no, it's not a yes, I'm not feeling a yes.
Speaker 1:So I say no to more things, um, these days and every now, and then I'll be like, oh yeah, you know what I'm in for that one, and it reminds me of that when we were in our coach training all those years ago, it was that negotiation piece where it's like yes, no or counter offer. And I think that counter offer is really powerful, because sometimes you don't know, because the thing they've offered isn't the thing you want. But if it was designed in a slightly different way, then it might be yes. So it's like yes, but maybe this or yes, and maybe we could do that instead. So I love that. You know if it's a no, if it's a, don't know, it's a no, but maybe there is a little way that you can co-create something that might work.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, I'm not a hugger. Oh, I know, and I think yeah, I think I've lived under this like umbrella of being a hugger on my life until I wasn't anymore, and that's okay. Like a lot's changed in me and the way I approach things has changed and it feels better. To be honest, I'm much more happy than I ever have been. But going back to that, you know, I feel like sometimes we get invitations to things and it sounds amazing and yet there's something in it that we're like I'm just not sure about it and it could be that the person that's invited you you don't know if you want to go with that person, so it could be the most amazing thing.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've been invited to some wonderful things in my life. You know experiences, trips away, holidays I would pretty much go to anything. So be like, yeah, I'm up for it because I'm highly responsive and I'm generally a yes person. But I look back now and I'm like you did great things, but with people that you just didn't really want to hang out with because it was amazing. But I'm not that person anymore and I'm much more clear with my intentions and feelings. It's like if something's a bit off. Even though it might look amazing on paper and it might sound great, it's off, so it's a no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also listen to your instincts and don't be sucked into the fear of missing out, which I think so many people put themselves into positions where they know this doesn't feel right but they're scared of um not getting the social media picture or not being included. Um, yeah, don't, don't get sucked into that. And I wanted to just also um round off some of the conversations around this, this thing about leadership, um, and because I know that I probably needed good role models myself as I was growing up, um, and I didn't have any because we were the trailblazers in so many of the different arenas that we were in, and this is, I guess, a bit of an invitation to both male and female leaders. But if you are in a position of influence, that you have a little bit more rank and privilege and something sexist or belittling or any negative behavior, to be honest, presents in your working environment, presents in your working environment, then it's your job as that leader to set those professional boundaries about what behavior is good or bad.
Speaker 1:And you know it may not be appropriate to pull the offender of the comment up there and then, but take them aside afterwards and say, look, this is the conversation that we were having or this was you know in that meeting. This is what I heard, or what I said. The impact on me or the impact on the room was this were you aware of it? And it's that situation, behaviour impact. It's a really good way to frame that bit of feedback. And you're saying you know, this is what I saw, I noticed. What do you make of it? So that's something I invite leaders to do and then, if you have that sense of I'm safe to be able to say this stuff in public, just say hey, you said this in a bit of a clumsy way. Could you reframe it in another way? That maybe lands better. So you're just calling it out there, and then We've got to have the role models out there brave enough to actually call out everyday sexism, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean even just in a simple way of of landing a conversation. You know, when you say x, I feel disempowered. What would be really great for me is if we found a different way of having this discussion or we just drop those types of comments. You know, it's like making someone realize that what they are doing, saying, is having an impact and it's creating a feeling. Not that you know, our feelings are our feelings, so we have to own our own, our own feelings. But when it comes in response to someone's behavior, then let that person know their impact, you know and if all else fails, just do my go-to.
Speaker 1:That I use all the time and it's like really, yeah, and it's not. They know what you mean, everybody knows what you mean, but just always it's just one word you've got to remember really yeah, it's a good point.
Speaker 2:We need to keep these things simple, don't we? Especially in the beginning, when we're just stepping into speaking up, it can feel really vulnerable and nerve-wracking. And also, you know, I don't know about you, but when I first step into something like the noise in my head or the noise in my ears can be very loud. It's like I'm quite I hear things. So I have a lot of stuff that goes on with my ear, so I'll'll hear messages as long as someone's talking to me. Now I'm making myself sound totally crazy, but that's how I am and you know, so I can get all this noise in my ears, and so that is quite unsettling because it's unbalancing. And so it's about keeping it simple, keeping it straightforward. If you don't generally don't feel safe, then get out of there. But if you're in a space where this is, you know, part of your working life, or somewhere where it's really important for yourself, for you to speak up, the word really is a great way of doing it, or just no well.
Speaker 1:I think it's really important to also know that the other person might not respond very well. They might not like being called out um there. They may have done it to make you feel smaller and then feel bigger and you responding in a powerful way. They haven't got the result that they want, but just know that every time you say no, you say really, you challenge, you get curious, you're taking the power back, and that is often enough to break the cycle yay, I, I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that. So it feels like we've talked about some you know, lots of different things here today and time to wrap up. Next week we're going to be talking about asking for help. It's time to break those taboos and stories. We tell ourselves that we have to go it alone. I can't wait.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I love our conversations. I love it when we get in the diary. Oh no, I love our conversations, I love it when we get in the diary. So, um, I just invite everyone to like, share, subscribe, reach out to us, join our group. And yeah, we're on instagram, facebook, so you can find us that way. Um, so until next time, bye, bye, so, thanks for listening, and we can't wait to welcome you next time, until then use your voice, journal, speak or sing out loud.
Speaker 2:However you do it, we hope you join us in saying it's a star.