Say it Sister...
Lucy and Karen, two 40-somethings, are always chatting about life, and all that it has to throw at them, and now want to share their raw, honest conversations with you. Their journey of self-discovery and healing is something many of us can relate to. We all possess a unique power within us, but life’s trials often knock us off course. They have the tools, the courage to speak up and simply say it as it is, so you might feel seen, and understood and gain practical tools and techniques for self-discovery and personal growth during the changes we experience.
Say it Sister...
Everyday Sexism part 1: Challenging Everyday Sexism and Reclaiming Personal Space
Casual sexism lurks in everyday life, from the clothes we wear to the space we claim in public. Lucy and Karen come together on Say it Sister to tackle these pervasive issues head-on. Lucy shares the journey of raising daughters who are beginning to recognize the subtle and not-so-subtle ways sexism creeps into their world. Karen reflects on her own past experiences, revealing the emotional scars that linger. Our conversation uncovers not just the absurdity of tiny pockets in women’s jeans, but the normalization of dismissive attitudes toward harassment and the importance of teaching the next generation to recognize and combat sexism.
Challenging sexism requires more than just awareness; it demands action and empowerment. We discuss the crucial need for women to reclaim their power by confronting inappropriate comments and behaviors, especially when those behaviors come from positions of authority. This isn't just about women; it's about educating everyone on personal boundaries and respect, a priority that has become even more vital in a post-COVID world where personal space is cherished. By sharing our stories, we aim to inspire you to recognize these issues and challenge them, setting the stage for more in-depth conversations on societal clichés and gender norms.
Navigating societal judgment, particularly around body image and clothing, poses another challenge. The tension between self-expression and safety is an ongoing struggle for women and girls alike. Through personal anecdotes, we explore how women assert control over their personal space, from choosing outfits that empower rather than invite judgment to dealing with uncomfortable situations on public transport. This episode is a celebration of using one’s voice—whether through speaking out or creative expression. As we wrap up, we invite our community to continue this dialogue and embrace their unique voices, reminding everyone that your voice truly matters.
Hello and welcome to the Say it Sister podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm Lucy and I'm Karen, and we're thrilled to have you here. Our paths crossed years ago on a shared journey of self-discovery, and what we found was an unshakable bond and a mutual desire to help others heal and live their very best lives.
Speaker 1:For years, we've had open, honest and courageous conversations, discussions that challenged us, lifted us and sometimes even brought us to tears. We want to share those conversations with you. We believe that by letting you into our world, you might find the courage to use your voice and say what really needs to be said in your own life, whether you're a woman seeking empowerment, a self-improvement enthusiast or someone who craves thought-provoking dialogue, join us, as we promise to bring you real, unfiltered conversations that encourage self-reflection and growth.
Speaker 1:So join us as we explore, question and grow together. It's time to say say it, sister. Hello, it's so great to be back with you, karen, and before I let you speak, I just want to just say how excited I am about talking about this topic, because it's a topic that me and my daughters talk about all the time, and this is the everyday sexism everyday. Well, the casual sexism that we're all encountering every single day, and I think I probably got a little bit complacent about it because I've lived with it for so long. But now they're going out there in the world and encountering it for the first time. They're absolutely outraged, and so I want to give myself credit because they they're educated around this stuff and they can spot it, because I've raised them to be that way.
Speaker 1:But I didn't have that. So when it was happening to me, I just didn't know. And there are some ridiculous things that are said, done, experienced, some completely absurd and some downright awful things that happened that are just so casually dropped in there that it stops us in our tracks, but we just let it carry on. We just we don't do anything about it, but we feel it inside. We feel like like somebody's played an off key on the piano. You notice it, but then you just carry on with the music. So I want to celebrate myself to start off with for raising daughters who are aware of this. And yeah, I'm just wondering, where are you with it all?
Speaker 2:This is a really hard one for me because it took me down a rabbit hole. I wondered why I was just disconnected from the topic and I kept thinking you know, I know this is everywhere, I have experienced it on multiple levels across many years. It's not really my life today, because of the phase and stage I'm in and because of my choices that I make. However, I experienced it a hell of a lot when I was a lot younger and there was a part of me that didn't want to open it back up. They didn't want to go into it because of the wounding that sits within the space of everyday sexism.
Speaker 2:You know, it's something that, as women, we grow up with, we live with, we learn to navigate through in a way, um, but it's like one of those things. You know, just because it happens doesn't make it right, and so for me, there's a lot that came up, but it took me a few days to just even be able to look at the topic itself and go, oh, what is this about? What is this topic doing to me right now as a 48 year old woman, and how do I feel about it today versus how I felt about it, you know, when I was younger and I'd honestly say I still feel pretty disgusted. The feeling is still the same.
Speaker 1:However, I'm um, I'm more grown up now, so I can talk about it from a different place yeah, and I, and for me, I look back and I think how absurd is it that I, I let these these everyday sexisms happen? I didn't speak up, and so I can't go and change the past. But what I absolutely can do is empower my daughters and empower, um, all of the, the daughters out there listening who are about to go out there into the world, and we together will hopefully educate and share some of our thoughts with the, the mothers, the parents, the mentors out there, so that they can help break these everyday, casual sexisms. But I'm assuming everybody knows what we're talking about, and so if you don't understand what we're talking about, I'm just going to give you a few examples that me and my daughters brainstormed last night. So the the biggest bugbear they had yesterday was these teeny, tiny pockets in their jeans. And how come girls only get jeans that will hold maybe a lipstick, whereas boys get these big jeans that hold their wallet and their phone and their keys, because clearly girls don't need pockets. And then that it's kind of like the cat calling, but in a not so overt way, where somebody says, oh, go on, give us a smile, darling. And it's just like, oh, really.
Speaker 1:And then do you know what, when was younger um it? Well, it came to me this example, but I was kind of being a bit bullied, teased, um, harassed a little bit by a boy when I was in primary school, so I'd have probably been about eight, nine years old, and I told the teacher and the teacher just said, oh, don't worry, it's because he likes you, and I'm just like, okay, um, but clearly that's just everyday sexism, it's that casual sexism, um. And then my nan asked me when I um went to university, she said, oh, okay, so, um, if you got married, would you give it up, would you? Just you, you know. And I was like what, I know, I'm going to university for me not to find a husband, not to as a backup plan, because I wasn't married yet. And I can forgive her because she was of a generation.
Speaker 1:And then a really horrible one was when I got a promotion in my late 20s and I heard the jokes. Well, they were overt, like, oh, what did you have to do to get that promotion? And clearly meaning sexual acts, and it was just really demeaning, but I had no language at that time to counter it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's just that uncomfortable feeling that you get in your stomach around something which is generally gender related or related in some way to sex but not always just sex and I feel like we should just, you know, talk about that, talk about the fact that this is the stuff that happens to us. It makes us feel icky, um, we want to ignore it because we're not sure if it was meant in a certain way or if it's just a flippant comment, and actually some of it's so normalized that you're almost like well, this is how it is. And I think the big thing for me is, if I feel disempowered and if I feel like I can't say something, then generally there's something happening. There's something more than just a flippant comment that was made inappropriately and it might start as that, but these things can lead into bigger things, and so if we, as women, allow everyday sexism to, you know, come into our world, to come into our life, we're almost setting ourselves up in a way, because the sooner we can speak up and say, actually, that's not okay with me, the sooner we can get back into our power and our truth and we can speak up and say, actually, that's not okay with me, the sooner we can get back into our power and our truth and we can move on. Otherwise, it's like a big, massive pileup on the motorway, you know, like there's an accident happens and then there's a pileup that goes on top of that and you want to avoid it at all costs, obviously, but at the same time we do need to be, but we can't talk about it if we don't know what it is. Yes, you know, and so sometimes it can be really, you know, offensive or invasive, but other times it's more subtle.
Speaker 2:Um, it could be that person who pulls you in for a hug, you know, and you don't want to give that hug, but even though you like that person, even though you respect that person, you're just not in that place. And so the I think there needs to be this almost like a lining piece where we almost need to train the people around us who come into our world, you know, to say, actually, I'm not going to give a hug right now, or I don't, I don't do hugs, or, you know, it's like there's something about asking for permission if you're going to come into the space or if you're going to touch somebody. And I think when we work in the coaching world and we're doing training work, we'll say is it OK for me to touch you? Because we might put a hand on the shoulder or on the heart or something, because these are trigger points and none of us know what somebody else has experienced.
Speaker 2:If we go in there and start, I can imagine if we went over to them and started touching them they'd think it was a bit strange. I would imagine they may like it. I'm not saying that they wouldn't like it, but you know, there's just a point of going hold on a minute here this is your space, this is my space.
Speaker 1:if I come into it, let's be respectful. You know, and I feel like everybody's gotta say, um, in the the post-covid uh years, when we started going out in public again, um, there was a lot of conversations about personal contact and, uh, and one of the companies had got on there, they got these lanyards that they said about people who are okay to touch, people who were like you know, I'm shielding, and others who were like no, stay out of my personal space. And I was just thinking we shouldn't have to actually have that. We should just respect each other's personal space. But, yeah, just have those conversations. Or, if not, get a lanyard saying, okay, this is my space, don't don't come in.
Speaker 2:And you know it's. The thing is, it's kind of obvious, but it isn't obvious because it's been going on for so long and women have just put up with it. And you know so many women say, well, I didn't say anything because I'm a woman and that's what we do. You know, we hold silence, we don't speak, and hence why we're doing this podcast, because there has to come a point in time when we acknowledge what is going on and say actually that that that comment is not okay with me, the way you're moving towards me is not okay with me, please move away. But it it can be hard when it's somebody who is maybe doing it, who's in a position of power or has an authority voice. It gets a lot harder then.
Speaker 2:Um, and there is an education that needs to happen, because I don't believe that everyone that does, you know, that makes everyday sexism moves towards you is deliberately trying to do it. I feel like there's a lot of confusion, perhaps a miseducation. So this is actually a big this is. This topic is so huge. I think that's also part of my like you know, disassociation with it, because I just think, where do you even begin? Because it is absolutely everywhere. Disassociation with it, because I just think where?
Speaker 1:do you even begin?
Speaker 1:Because it is absolutely everywhere, yeah, so I think we begin just by educating and then in future weeks we'll go into the, the different nuances that make it so normal.
Speaker 1:Um, so yeah, today that the quest really is just to name this is what it is, this is what we're seeing. This is an example I've experienced, in the hope that it actually just yet alerts the listeners and say, ah, I hadn't realized that maybe next time I'll be aware and then maybe the next time after that I'll have the skills and the tools to be able to counteract that. But the reality is is currently, if I experience it, I still miss it in the moment because I'm stuck in that triggered state and by the time I'm like, oh, this is what I should have said, the moment has passed. So it, yeah, even though we know this, it's still a lot of work in progress and also, I think a lot of it is just based around basic cliches that we've been exposed to our whole lives, um, that are just so buried deep internally that, again, we don't really realize. So what cliches can you think of?
Speaker 2:well, as I was thinking about this, I went back to that old, you know Jerry Hall quote that said that her mother said, you know that you keep a man. If you could be a chef in the kitchen, you could be a whore in the bedroom, and I can't remember what the final one was. You know, and it's this idea of, like, you play these three roles and you play them well and they cover off what men want and then you'll keep your husband. And you know, whilst I know that's absolutely ridiculous because that's not the life I live or lead, and I certainly don't have that agreement with my own husband, it did affect me for many, many years because I definitely, definitely, grew up thinking that it was.
Speaker 2:You know, it was almost a form of flattery for people to like shout, you know, shout out windows or beat their horn or, you know, make comments about your body. I mean, it wasn't when I was very young I didn't feel like that at all, but as I got a little bit older and I get, I got more into um, you know my growth, I suppose you could say. Then it became more like I have this body, I may as well use this body in a way and it, and I've learned that actually, when we're confused by something, so initially for me everyday sexism was very confusing. I did not understand why everyone was talking about my body, and because I was shapely and I had double d boobs, you know, if you put a, doesn't matter how old that that body is in front of a man, they think sex. And so everybody was talking about my figure all the time and I was like that was the worst thing in the world for me. It was deeply uncomfortable. I actually wanted to ignore what was going on with my body because I was very, very young and so, you know, becoming a woman when you're in primary school is a very difficult journey, and then you go to high school and it goes from there. But as I got older, I thought, you know, this is happening around me, this is happening to me, I'm gonna have deal with these comments. It's not going anywhere and it's not going away and it's not getting any better. So I might as well own it. And I learned that that was about becoming a master of something that I did not understand, and so that jump from confusion and powerlessness became something that was more like well, I might as well, empower myself with it. So I started to own it. But it came from it still came from that place of how do I make this okay for myself? Because of what I was having to experience from. You know, women talked about my body as well, so it wasn't just men, but it was everywhere for me and I couldn't get away. So I was like, well, I own it.
Speaker 2:And then I never forget, you know, my dad saying to me one time I was a Hacienda kid club so I would go out clubbing, you know, and we would all wear me and my friends, we'd all wear the same things.
Speaker 2:It was a brand called Subcouture and it was, um, like almost like light, wet, look, lycra, that you could club and dance all night in and you couldn't see that you'd been sweating and it was short, skimpy, um, you know, navels on show, legs on show, that kind of thing, and because of my figure it looked sexy, but on the other girls it just looked like young girls going out it.
Speaker 2:It didn't have the same impact from that place. And dad said to me why do you always have to dress sexily? And I was like I'm not, I'm dressing like my friends, I'm dressing like I want to dress. I now know that that was a bit of a warning. He was trying to sort of give me a warning of something that would come later and I love and respect him for that because he was subtle, it was well, it was direct, but it was like now I look back and I go, I can see what he was trying to tell me. But you know, I was a young girl wanting to wear what my friends wore and feel safe in that space. Ultimately, yeah, it's a.
Speaker 1:It's very, very complicated for me because I had quite a similar experience Even. I think it might have been about a week ago or so, and my youngest was getting ready to go out to a party and she, she was wearing an outfit party. And she, um, she was wearing an outfit and my heart like sank as soon as I saw it because it was, uh, she, she's very shapely, but it was one of those where it was a body suit, where I think the fashion at the moment is these body suits with really high reaching um legs, and then she was wearing, like, uh, hipster jeans, so she basically was just showing off, um, all of her hips and um, and yeah, and I just said, I said you look fabulous, I think you look amazing. I'm just really unsure about you going out in that, into that environment, and I was really trying hard not to shame her.
Speaker 1:But, like your dad, I was actually also trying to protect her because I want her to feel empowered and she should be able to wear exactly what she wants to wear. It is the fashion. But, equally, because we live in an environment where, unfortunately, women aren't safe and they are, you know, victim shamed and slut shamed, etc. I was also trying to protect her from that and it so such. You know I'm yo-yoing the whole time, empowering them to say, yeah, wear whatever you want, and then the other side like, but be careful, it's, it's so this is the hardest.
Speaker 2:I think it's the hardest thing, because part of me is like, well, she shouldn't have to go out dressed like a nun or, you know, like fully covered. Who does that? As a, you know, as young women, they want to go out, they want to feel, they want to feel like they're in tune with their bodies. It's a time of experimentation. You know, we all look back at pictures of ourselves and go, oh my God, I really went out in that, you know, and that is part of growing up, as part of that is as it should be. And yet the world is evolving at a pace and there's lots of good and there's also lots of bad, as we've been talking about.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I don't know, I feel like it's, it's almost like I think we have to get very clear and conscious with our conversations and about who's around us and what the dangers are. But also, where are the safe spaces for women? Because if she's meeting up with a group of friends and they're, you know, in a safe space, then that's absolutely fine. But if, if there are other people coming into that space, it just becomes more complicated. I mean, no one should be going out looking over their shoulder all the time. I don't feel like that and at the same time, we have to be real about what's going on.
Speaker 1:You know what? Something similar happened to me in the workplace and I was a department head at the time and I have big boobs and I was wearing a I think it was probably a Marks and Spencer's white shirt or maybe a. Next. It was, like, you know, really box standard and with women, you know, it's more like a blouse, isn't it? And you could not help seeing my cleavage when I was sat down and somebody was stood up. So if they came to my desk, of course they were looking down. My cleavage is there. There is nothing I can do about it. I own boobs. It does not interfere with my ability to do my job and to lead.
Speaker 1:However, somebody did take me aside and say, um, I don't think that's appropriate for somebody in management. I'm like, what am I supposed to wear? Literally, this is business clothes that are being sold in shops and it. Yeah, for a long time I really did feel quite shamed about what is appropriate and then I realized actually, it's a you issue, it's not a me issue, absolutely, and I got back to my normal business um, but it did, yeah, it's an everyday and that's kind of like a cliche of um, everyday sexism about what is professional clothing. How do men behave, um, professionally, and what is professional for women? And we've still got such a long way to go with that. Even you know me speaking up in a meeting, I'd be called aggressive. Or if I got passionate or angry about something that was happening in my department, um, I would be over emotional. Yet if one of my male counterparts did it and they were like, oh, they're very strong, they're a strong leader, and it still vexes me to this day that that's how it was, but that's the reality.
Speaker 2:It is a reality and I feel very much like we can go down many rabbit holes with this one and we then make it about something we've done wrong, when actually we're born into a society that has created this, almost like these roles that men and women play, you know, and they're still living out today. And then we, by talking about them, we can say, well, actually, what's my role in this? How do I want to show up? You know, I feel like it's almost like blaming somebody because of the lipstick that they wore, or you know where their skirt sits on their legs, and I'm very, very anti that and I'm also very aware. So I'm trying to hold all these different contexts together and then for me, it's about, as I say, I've got to read the room. I read the room a lot these days, like who's going to be there, what's the context? Um, what? What do I need to do to feel safe? But how can I totally express who I am at the same time, and if I don't feel like I can express myself, do I even want to be there? Is that a space for me? And asking these questions and that helps me to really, really define what I say yes to and what I say no to, and actually who I hang out with and who I don't hang out with. I mean, my friendship circle is so different to how it used to be because a lot of the people that I used to hang out with you, you know, I can't imagine hanging out with people anymore because so many things changed in my life. You know, I'm not going out the way I used to go out. Everything is very, very different for me because I've started to be very conscious about my choices in a way that helps me to.
Speaker 2:When I do hang out with people, it's people that I know are on my wavelength number one, you know, and I I think, I think it's easy for me now at this point, as you know, this point in my life, to be able to do that. But it wasn't easy actually to lose friendships, to walk away from things. It wasn't easy to, um, you know, redesign my life at all. It was actually really, really hard. There was a lot of loss in there.
Speaker 2:But it feels good now because I only want to be around people that are genuinely empowering and genuinely there for me. And I do hang out with, you know, if I think about men. There are so many incredible men who are feminists, who I know and who have brought so much value to my life. They're the men that I choose to be around. You know who I spend time with, who I invest in, and they invest in me and thank god for them, because they've restored my faith in the masculine and in the healthy masculine that exists out there. But it's like how do we then cope with the unhealthy?
Speaker 1:and this is what we need that, those allies I like to call them allies because they will speak up generally and name it or role model what healthy looks like. And we need more of those becoming visible, because the school and sports team banter is so prolific that quite often a lot of the men then go into public spaces, workplaces, and they still continue this banter. And we need let's face it, the women can call them out, but it's usually a man that they listen to and we need those kind of healthy male leaders, male colleagues, to turn and say that's not funny or that's not cool or what's your intention with that, and just call them out, because there's only so much work that we can do as women. We need everybody to do this. And and it was really interesting and we've obviously seen lots of stats about Transport you know women, vulnerable people on transport and how much they are being scared, intimidated, assaulted, scared, intimidated, assaulted. And just a week ago my eldest was coming back from a trip, a summer trip, and it was about 10 o'clock at night and she was on the train and she was phoning me because it was near where she gets dropped off and I could hear all this like laddishness in the background and I thought I'm not feeling comfortable with that, and so she wanted to stay on the phone with me and so I'm like, ok, I'm sensing she's not feeling comfortable.
Speaker 1:Anyway, got to the station and this group of lads got off and they were probably no more than 18. All had a few drinks. Going into town and Bella got into the car and she was like, oh my God, mum, that was horrible. And they were making rape jokes and egging each other on about who would rape who, and oh, I bet you wouldn't have it in you and all this kind of stuff, which was A horrendous.
Speaker 1:B the fact that they were then it was part of their culture, that they were like, you know, normalising it and thinking it was completely acceptable to talk on public transport like this. But there was another girl who was on the train with with her and they kind of like eyed each other and they went and sat next to each other because they felt so unsafe. And the other girl did actually call the police just to say you know, a, I'm feeling unsafe, but B this is a group of lads who are going into town talking like this. Can you just have them on alert? And this is like the when I say this locker room banter, it was just horrendous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's not. I mean there's no. There's just no room in my heart or my head for that kind of behaviour, and I know that the transport you know they now have things in place place, don't they to help anything that feels unsafe for anyone, and that's absolutely right.
Speaker 1:But again, does it impact you traveling and how you think?
Speaker 2:about traveling now? Uh, yes, of course it does. I mean, I don't tend to go to many places on my own. I'm pretty awful with these things really, to be honest, and I get nervous if I get into a taxi. I mean, I, the woman before, you know, before 2017, was very different to the woman that sits here today. You know, the woman before was like I was always traveling, I was always on my own, I loved it. I got so much joy out of that sense of freedom and, you know, leaving somewhere behind that was a big thing for me and I think I'm a bit of an escapist anyway. So, yeah, absolutely, but these days, no, absolutely not, and I've deliberately steered most of my business through a computer screen in a way, and it's worked for me really, really well. And then I get, I get called out to do something. You know, maybe I'll get the train down to London, and that feels like a major, major thing these days and, considering how I used to be, I'm almost like, wow, this person's very, very different. But I feel more safe in myself in a weird way and you know, I'll notice.
Speaker 2:I noticed last time I was on the train that a guy, there was loads of empty seats. And then a man came and sat opposite me when he didn't need to and I was doing some work. You know, I was on the table and it was a quiet carriage because it was a really early morning train and I was a bit like, hmm, and I stayed there for a while, I kept working and then eventually I just moved because I just thought I don't actually want you in my space. I'm working, you're opposite me, you know how close things are. You know he probably maybe you just wanted to sit at that, but it was like you could have sat anywhere on this train and you sat opposite me.
Speaker 2:I don't like that feeling nothing was said but I don't like that feeling of people coming into my space. So for me that's a major alert. If someone actually comes into my personal space, I'm like do I want this person in my space or not? That's step one, and then I'll take an action always and I think, as women. It's about women and girls. It's about actually saying you know, who do I want in my space? Because we've got this bubble around us. It's five to six feet, it's quite a big, actually, quite a big space, and if someone comes into it's coming towards you. You know that they're coming towards your space and you'll get an instant feeling as whether or not that's something you want or you don't want.
Speaker 2:So someone coming sitting near you when there's other spaces and they could sit and have their own personal space, for me is a trigger alert. I can't like what the heck's going on here, um. So I think there's an awareness of that as well, and what can you do about it? But first you've got to know that you don't feel. You're feeling something that you don't like, and it's these micro aggressions. It might not involve any words at all, there might be no touch involved at all, but just by someone being in your space that you, um, don't know, don't feel safe around, that's enough for you to maybe consider what you could do about it.
Speaker 1:And they might think, that's everything like rape, but well, it's on a spectrum, isn't it?
Speaker 1:so it starts off with these microaggressions and the everyday, casual sexism, these remarks, these cliches, the way that we're perceived in books or in the movies. So you've got this really low level stuff, that is, maintaining the status quo, and then you've got on the whole other side, which is obviously murder, rape, sexual assault, trafficking, all of that kind of stuff, stuff. And then you've got these degrees in the middle and for most of us we probably live in the casual, everyday sexism and these microaggressions. But we need to be aware of them because that's the start of it and unless we can tackle it, this end and right at the top end, and hopefully meet somewhere in the middle, nothing's going to change no, it's not going to change and I think you know, I think we have to just talk about it, like I said, and it's thinking about even things like how business, business actually operates.
Speaker 2:If you think about I, you know we talk about Hollywood, don't we? We talk about, you know, women in Hollywood and what they've had to go through, and there's their women that disappear when they get to a certain age because they're invisible. But there's also the women that have to. You know the old casting couch idea of women that disappear when they get to a certain age because they're invisible. But there's also the women that have to you know the old casting couch idea of women that basically would have to go and sleep with directors and producers you know the likes of the Harvey Weinsteins out there, you know to get roles, to be and then the way that they are treated you know, in these films and these environments is absolutely awful and there's been a whole movement around around that. The me too movement was really sort of speared off from that and I think. But these things do cascade down into business as well.
Speaker 2:And, um, you know, one of my earlier memories although it's kind of like turning this one around from a different angle was that I did some work experience at a PR company when I was 18 and I went to work at this company and it was run by these two women who were like, definitely elders and I couldn't put an exact age on it, but I'd say menopause plus and they were these two like high-powered women who were really amazing. Actually, I was an 18 year old girl going in there not really knowing what I was doing, and they they were doing something with male models. They were getting all these male models coming in and they they were like right, the casting couch is over there, go sit yourself down on the casting couch. And they said guys, and I was really shocked because I was like I've never heard it flipped like that before and I was very young, I was very aware of everyday sexism because it was happening all the time. But these two women were almost like I mean, they were joking, it was a joke, it was an everyday sexism turned on its head. From their experiences, probably as women, you know that have had to sort of like go through the corporate world. They were working in very much a male domain as well, so charter, surveyor, solicitors, that they were their clients and it still stands with me today and I remember like going away and going, wow, that's blown my mind because I'd never seen it tackled like that.
Speaker 2:Now, it wasn't really fair on the young guys that were going in. So there's a part of me that goes, wow, that was really uncomfortable, and it was uncomfortable for me as well, and at the same time it was like just blew my mind a little bit. So wow, yeah, just wow, trailblazing in that way and yet not correct. You know what I mean? It's still not, still not a correct. Whether it's a woman said it's not correct. But it is the world that it is, more so women that have to go through these things. And we know there's lots of men out there saying, but what about men? But what about men? And we're here to say, yes, we understand that men are on their own journey and, however, we're talking about the things that really do affect women, and a proportion probably of men as well, but mainly, on the whole, it's a women's issue and that's really important for me to sort of state that say that everyday sexism generally is a female issue, although I'm sure it affects men in places too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, of course there's plenty of things where we joke about men and, yeah, belittle them, often in an act of power, trying to reclaim a little bit of power, but it works both ways. But they are usually things like naming man flu or saying, oh, they can never find their keys, or, oh, I can't ask them to, you know, do the cooking, because it would just be a ridiculous mess. So we obviously make these little jibes and it's still not helpful, but these are tiny compared to the huge scale of stuff that, um, women, all women, girls have to deal with. And so, yeah, I think it's really important that we've we've had this conversation and, although we haven't gone into where this leads to, you know what you can do in the moment or how you can reclaim your power. How do you deal with everyday sexism while staying safe, because that's going to come up next time, isn't it? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And it's just, I think, to open this discussion, discussion to talk about it from a very open place. It'd be really, you know, obviously hoping that the listeners will be understanding this in a way, but also referring back to their own lives, to what their experiences are and how this shows up in their life, because we all have, we do have a personal journey to go along. You know, we have our own bodies. The female body is a female body. You know, we have certain parts of us that will have experienced everyday sexism and beyond. But it is a very, very personal journey because it goes back into that, that moment of going.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't feel comfortable, all of a sudden, what was said, what was done? Who's around me? You know, it comes right back down to that, because we know when something doesn't feel right, our instincts tell us and we get an alert, and then it's that that's the most important thing for a woman or a girl to actually tune into, to say when does this happen to me? When does it happen to me, who it, who is likely to be doing it? What spaces am I in? When do I feel disempowered? And just really listen, because I think the awareness is is the key to take us out of the situation that we might be in currently or in in the future, because who knows what? We don't know what's ahead of us. So we have to be ready and we have to be armed.
Speaker 1:The information lives inside our bodies so there's a perfect, almost like ending to today's session. So just to talk about next episode, we are going to be talking about this very topic, um, empowering ourselves when we meet these everyday casual sexisms, when we feel that feeling, when we know something is off. Um, but I want to invite our listeners that, while you're waiting for the next episode, why not give us a like, a share, tell your friends, subscribe, because the more you help us, the the wider our reach will be and, hopefully, more listeners, more impact, because we're here to do good work yeah, and don't forget that you can contact us on instagram, facebook and tiktok and join the private facebook group as well, so you can send any of your shares, your concerns, anything you might need help with, any topics that you might want us to talk about.
Speaker 2:Please come join the private facebook group. It's women only and you can put anything out there and we will respond asap. Thank you so much for listening today. It's been an absolute pleasure and I hope that this helps you in some way. See you next time.
Speaker 1:So thanks for listening and we can't wait to welcome you next time.
Speaker 2:Until then, use your voice, journal, speak or sing out loud. However you do it, we hope you join us in.
Speaker 1:Saying it Sister.