Say it Sister...
Lucy and Karen, two 40-somethings, are always chatting about life, and all that it has to throw at them, and now want to share their raw, honest conversations with you. Their journey of self-discovery and healing is something many of us can relate to. We all possess a unique power within us, but life’s trials often knock us off course. They have the tools, the courage to speak up and simply say it as it is, so you might feel seen, and understood and gain practical tools and techniques for self-discovery and personal growth during the changes we experience.
Say it Sister...
Healing the Past: Navigating Trauma, PTSD, and Personal Empowerment
What if your past could silently shape your present, dictating your reactions and feelings? Join us as we welcome Jane McCampbell-Stewart, a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in trauma and PTSD, to unravel this mystery. Jane shares her personal journey with PTSD and her exploration of trauma, which has colored her professional career. Karen, co-host of the Say it Sister podcast, also courageously shares her own experiences with PTSD following a series of traumatic events in 2018. Together, they discuss the significance of recognizing intergenerational, prenatal, and relational trauma and how these invisible wounds influence personal development.
Our conversation shines a light on the often unnoticed signals that guide individuals toward seeking trauma therapy. Jane discusses the "rule of two" and how past experiences can be triggered by current challenges, affecting men and women in distinct ways. We explore how societal norms can shape the healing process differently for both genders, with women often leaning toward communal support while men may grapple with emotional access. Through the metaphor of an elastic band, we illustrate how PTSD can cause a reversion to past behaviors, making it vital to understand these patterns for effective healing.
Discover practical strategies for managing emotional triggers and reclaiming your sense of self with techniques like the "climber's thump" and "butterfly hug." Jane and Karen emphasize the power of self-awareness and healing, encouraging a hopeful journey toward personal liberation. We delve into the importance of having a supportive network and avoiding self-blame while navigating confusing interactions. With heartfelt stories and actionable insights, this episode serves as an empowering guide for those seeking to find their voice and embark on their healing journey.
Hello and welcome to the Say it Sister podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm Lucy and I'm Karen, and we're thrilled to have you here. Our paths crossed years ago on a shared journey of self-discovery, and what we found was an unshakable bond and a mutual desire to help others heal and live their very best lives.
Speaker 1:For years, we've had open, honest and courageous conversations, discussions that challenged us, lifted us and sometimes even brought us to tears. We want to share those conversations with you. We believe that by letting you into our world, you might find the courage to use your voice and say what really needs to be said in your own life.
Speaker 2:Whether you're a woman seeking empowerment, a self-improvement enthusiast or someone who craves thought-provoking dialogue, join us, as we promise to bring you real, unfiltered conversations that encourage self-reflection and growth.
Speaker 1:So join us as we explore, question and grow together. It's time to say Say it Sister, hey, hey, hey, everyone, it's Lucy and we're back with the Say it Sister podcast and today we are so excited to welcome our guest, jane McCampbell-Stewart. Now, jane is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified EMDR therapist, a certified coach and an advanced practitioner of the Akashic Records. She specializes in healing of trauma and PTSD, paying close attention to the impact of intergenerational, prenatal and relational trauma on who we grow up to be Now. Jane grew up in England but spent 20 years in the US and now lives in British Columbia, canada, working online with clients from all over the world to help recognise and respond to trauma. So, as you can probably guess, this week we're going to be talking about trauma and PTSD, but before we dive in, I want to welcome Karen to introduce Jane on a more personal level.
Speaker 2:This is the longest introduction ever, but I just wanted to say that Jane is my therapist, somebody I've been working with for about two years now, and I was diagnosed with PTSD when I was pregnant in 2018 and I'd had a long build of quite traumatic things happen in the space of the same year from sexual assault to theft, to miscarrying my daughter's twin and the impact of that on my system, on my body, was, you know, extreme sort of PTSD responses to everyday things.
Speaker 2:So I did quite a lot of work until I actually started to work with Jane, which really helped me, but I just couldn't get rid of the, the sensory overload that was in my body and it was having quite a big impact on my life and you know I was quite scared to go out.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to sort of, you know, expand myself too much and I was really scared of playgrounds because my daughter you know we had COVID as well. So the COVID era, when we'd been in a little bubble, when I had, you know, when it was time to go back out into the world, I was a little bit. I was just overloaded, you know, with feelings, emotions. I was having bad dreams as well and I was worried about losing her and I still have a little bit of this playing out that Jane's really helped me to get back into my body, get back into my power, and help me to create rituals that really support me every day, that help me to be calmer and, you know, not sort of jumping out of my skin, um, you know, if someone looks at me a strange way. So thank you so much, jane, for helping me to live my life and to get back out into the world in the most beautiful of ways.
Speaker 3:Thank you, karen. Just such a privilege and just so beautiful, just to see your growth and the fact that I get to have a front row seat, to that it's just. It's just the best job in the world. So thank you, and thank you for having me here to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah what was it that you know? Because trauma and PTSD was it was it's more talked about these days. People tend to talk about it. Yeah, what was it that you know? Because trauma and PTSD was it was it's more talked about these days. People tend to talk about it. But I certainly remember when I was diagnosed. It scared me because I thought, oh my god, there's something really wrong with me. And do you mean I have to open up this box that is inside me? And what if I don't come out of the box and I never recover? Um, what made you decide to take this on as a, you know, as a huge topic?
Speaker 3:um, well, you know, I think anybody who's called to any kind of healing work does it as a result of their own story. Um, so therapy is a second career for me. Um, and I was in my first year of my master's program, learning about therapy, and I went to uh therapy myself to work on some stuff that had been stirred up as a result of the content that I was learning in the program. And I was absolutely astounded when my therapist diagnosed me with PTSD. And I actually argued with her quite vociferously because of course you know everything when you're in your first year of graduate school because my image of what PTSD was was so extreme and I argued that because I was functional in the world, I was holding down a corporate job, I was in school, I was managing really well that I couldn't possibly have PTSD, and so why was she putting that diagnosis on my chart?
Speaker 3:And what I learned was that what I was dealing with was not something that everybody else in the world was dealing with. So not everybody was having the kind of nightmares that I was having. They weren't having intrusive images or memories forced their way in as soon as they closed their eyes to try and go to sleep, they weren't having these little kind of shudders through the day when suddenly things would remind them of something that had happened in the past. And I was going through dealing with all of that every day, assuming that that was just what it was to do life. And then finding out that actually it wasn't and that all of that could be healed and moved, was just incredibly powerful.
Speaker 3:And my therapist sent me off to do some EMDR, which at the time was really new. It was considered really uh, kooky and on the edge, uh, but it was so life-changing for me that I thought this, this is my purpose, this is what I came here to do so it's fascinating for me because, um, because I'm really aware that everybody has trauma and you know, there's no judgment as to what the trauma is, because we all have those unique experiences.
Speaker 1:But there's a huge generalization about the phrase PTSD and I'm hearing, especially in my daughter's generation, gen Z, everyone's saying oh, that's my PTSD. And I'm hearing, especially in the, my daughter's generation, gen Z, everyone's saying oh, that's my PTSD. A bit like when they say, oh, that's my OCD, and they literally don't have it, or they may, but undiagnosed. But it's almost like this, almost this frivolent, frivolent word that they, they just banned out. So I'm really interested what is the difference? Or is you know what is? What is PTSD, what is trauma? How do you know if you've got it?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah. So trauma is basically, or a traumatic experience is anything that happens that is impacting our well-being, our sense of integrity, or that is life or death, and that we are completely powerless in the moment to be able to respond to it. So the younger that we are, the more traumatic the experience is, because we don't have the voice or the choice or the physical strength to be able to protect ourselves in the same way that we do when we're older, which is why some of those younger experiences have such a lasting impact. Now, when that traumatic experience happens, we might respond to it in any number of ways. So we might just want to say not going to do that again.
Speaker 3:We might be okay until we're in the same situation again when we go back to the doctor's office or the dentist's office, or when we get back on the horse and then suddenly the symptoms or the memories come up.
Speaker 3:Or we might be completely okay and want to just sort of shove it away, get back to normal as fast as possible until something else comes along that looks like, sounds like, smells like, feels like whatever happened before, and then the brain says, oh, this is not isolated, this has happened before, it's now happening here and that means it could happen again. And that is usually the point at which, then, we go into the symptoms that are typically associated with PTSD, which is hypervigilance. It's often nightmares, it's often flashbacks, it's those intrusive memories, it's all the ways the brain is trying to make sense of what happened and be able to get mastery over it so that we can prevent it from happening again. And so often the PTSD doesn't actually set in or the symptoms of it don't set in until way down the line, and not necessarily right after whatever happened the first time.
Speaker 1:How do you, does that sound familiar?
Speaker 2:Karen, yeah, it does, it definitely does, because it's like going also for me, like going down, the same response that I may have had in the past, but it's not the right response, you know.
Speaker 2:And feeling for me, often it's like a feeling of wanting to run and, you know, get away, or being totally frozen, and these two things tend to be the sort of usual response that I will go to, you know, and just feeling that there's nothing else available or not actually physically being able to do anything, like it's totally powerlessness in terms of when, when it gets triggered. I mean, jane's really helped me to, you know, calm my nervous system down and help me to just be more regulated so that I'm not on a minus. You know, I'm kind of arriving in a more sort of neutral place inside myself and then, if something happens, I'm more able to sort of catch it and respond, you know, in the moment, but it's taken time for sure, and I might be working with this for the rest of my life I don't know yet, but it's certainly getting easier and it's a lot easier than when we first started working together. So I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the signals that I guess your clients come to you with when they're like, because I assume that they've been living with some of these signals for quite some time. So what do you tend to find is the catalyst that brings them to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, just like me, nearly all of my clients are really astounded when I name what they have as trauma. And that's interesting, given that most of my career has actually been as a trauma therapist, and so you would think that's why people would be coming to me. But yeah, usually people have this idea of what trauma is and that's very extreme, and they they're really surprised when I name it. So what they come in with is that's very extreme and they're really surprised when I name it. So what they come in with is that something's just happened that they're having a really hard time getting over, and even though they've got friends or colleagues who've been through a similar thing, their reaction seems to be worse than what the colleagues are experiencing and they're wondering why I can't get past this, why I can't get over it. And this is what I call the rule of two can't get past this white, I can't get over it.
Speaker 3:And this is what I call the rule of two, which is that something else happened a long time ago that has now been woken up and the brain is now having reactions to not only what's just happened today but also what happened before and in order to be able to clean it up and heal it up.
Speaker 3:We need to not only deal with what's just happened, but we need to go and see what, from your past, experiences this pulling on, and then we need to go and clean that up too, and sometimes it can be a really direct link to a very specific, discrete event. Tricky is if we grew up in a home that was chaotic, or whether there was a lot of neglect or whether we just weren't really kept safe in whatever way, we don't really know what's our responsibility, what's not. We don't have this felt sense of safety in the body, and we can't always tell when we're safe and who's trustworthy and who is not, and so that kind of pervasive underlying piece can then potentially predispose us or make us more vulnerable to then being in traumatizing situations as an adult, and so that just takes a lot more careful unpicking.
Speaker 2:That's certainly been my experience as well. What's been wonderful about it is that I've been able to almost like go all the way back through my life and deal with things that, had I not have had PTSD, probably would have just sat in my system forever, and I've been able to do the work quite diligently and respectfully and come back into my power today as a woman. And that leads me to my next question, which is about the types of. Do women show up with different types of trauma? Um, is it different for women to men? Because this is about you know us as sisters coming together yeah, um, you know.
Speaker 3:So I think trauma is basically about powerlessness, and so I think women generally have more experiences of powerlessness powerlessness than men do, just because they are generally not as physically strong, they generally are the subordinates in a patriarchal system that we're all living with, and so I think there's just more opportunity for women to be traumatized.
Speaker 3:I think men are traumatized, but they're traumatized in a very different way, and I think patriarchy really hurts them too, and particularly it hurts them in terms of cutting off their ability to access their emotions, and so then they actually have no recourse or no way of being able to heal from the trauma that they experienced, whereas the women are actually able to get in touch with the emotions, get in touch with the community, and one of the big pieces about being able to heal is borrowing somebody else's nervous system to help regulate your own, and you have to do that in the context of relationship, the context of relationship, and so women really have many more resources to heal their trauma than men do, which is what I think is the main difference, and so, working with men, it's often a lot harder to sort of get past the wall and get them down to recognizing oh, this was a really painful, really scary experience and it's okay for you to admit that as a little boy, you were really scared or really humiliated, and that this did a number on you.
Speaker 1:I'd listened to a podcast earlier this week and it gave the example of somebody who'd previously, you know, been a leadership coach and they said that they would be, you know, really supporting them, trying to you know, as coaches do get them to achieve their goals or to stretch a little bit more or just nudge it out. And they said that there was almost got to a point where there was a block and they used the example um, and they were really talking about with men here that it was almost like a really long elastic band that you kept stretching them, stretching them until the trauma hits or the PTSD hits or something, and it hurtles them right way back way into their past and then they start operating in the um the behaviors that they might have done way back beyond. And is that a good example that that podcast shared?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is a good example and I think it's a. It's an example for how PTSD shows up. Is that very often, when we suddenly get reminded of an event or a traumatic event gets woken up, is that we do kind of regress, we go back to the age and stage at which the original trauma occurred, and so often we will act out in some of those ways. And I think you know, again, women are much more aware of this. We talk about the inner child, all of those kinds of things. We talk about parts of the self. It's all vernacular that women are getting much more familiar with.
Speaker 3:Men, have not been having the same conversations, and so very often when they go back to that place they've got no idea what's happening, no idea how to conceptualize it. And I think that just particularly angry or acting out behavior among men is generally much more tolerated than, for example, emotional behavior with women in the workplace. And so when it's been tolerated, then you don't think, oh, maybe I need to go and talk to somebody about this. You just kind of move on and pretend that nothing happened and everybody else gets to adjust. So yeah, I think that's exactly how trauma shows up for men and depending on how it's received and who they're working with, they might or might not recognize that it's a problem and decide that they need to go work on it. Not recognize that it's a problem and decide that they need to go work on it.
Speaker 3:I will say sorry, I'm talking a lot, but there is a cost benefit analysis that has to take place before you're going to go do your work. And so the idea of actually going back and digging into all of this crap and re-looking at all these relationships and re-looking at everything that happened, people are really worried. That's going to be super painful, and if life is okay now, there's this thought of why do I actually need to go back and unpack all of that stuff? And again, I think the difference with women is that you know life is too painful now, so it is worth it for me to go and unpack that stuff to feel better, whereas men are maybe not feeling the same pain in the present, and so it's just it's not worth it for them to go back and do that that piece of work yeah, and I mean, it's one of the reasons why I decided to specialize in working with women, because I found that when I was working with men, I found that we were getting into something that was important.
Speaker 2:And then there would there would be this like kind of like, oh no, no, no, no, you know, and a backtrack would happen. And for me, as somebody who likes to do deep work, you know, once something is starting to sort of emerge, obviously the other person has the choice whether they open that up or not. You know, always it's never forced, but once I find that women just go, they're starting to see something, and then they start to open up and then they want to do the work because they see, like you say, they see the cost of what's going on for them and they're just more let's do this. You know, it doesn't feel forced, it's just like a genuine okay, I'm ready, um, to do the work. And so that's why I, yeah, that's why I went down the road that I went down, because for me it's important to really help.
Speaker 2:The word I'm getting is repair. You know, we're all here and we want to repair. Don't we take care of ourselves and nurture, and so that we can be more fully, you know ourselves, and present in the world, which I think the world needs right now as well. You know um, it works together. So, yeah, thank you for that. I my question is like so the rule of two? So if somebody is you know, okay, something's happened and I feel I can sense like it's it's happening again, what can they do about that so that they don't lose their power?
Speaker 3:uh, well, often they're not going to be aware of it. They're just going to be aware that they're having a big reaction and then in hindsight they might say, wow, ok, maybe that reaction was a little bit bigger than the situation warranted and I didn't really know what was going on. And so we do have a few techniques that we can use to take that reaction and then go and see what it's pulling on, and that's really really helpful to do. Take that reaction and then go and see what it's pulling on, and that's really really helpful to do. But if you're kind of aware that actually you're you're getting into a triggered space or you're starting to lose yourself, there's a few things you can do. So the biggest first aid that I suggest is called the climber stump, where you just take a fist and you do them on your chest and you keep just doing this and you can do it for a minute, you can do it for two minutes and you keep just doing this and you can do it for a minute, you can do it for two minutes and you do it until you're back in your body. And what this is doing as you thump the thymus gland is that it's releasing white blood cells and it's reducing anxiety and it is helping you get back in your body. So that's a really great emergency technique. When you start feeling your um, your breath going and you start feeling that freeze can just be really, really helpful, super useful.
Speaker 3:One of the other things that I suggest, so a response to trauma is, as you said, karen, is we kind of freeze, which is kind of like we just sort of leave the body. We just go off offline somewhere else and maybe we're standing beside ourselves, maybe we're looking down from above, maybe we're just off in the ether somewhere and we leave the body behind to deal with the trauma, um, and when we're little or when we're in a completely powerless situation, sometimes that's literally the only thing we can do, um, but actually what we then do is, um, really leave the body to re -experience it while the brain is not, and to get our power back. We actually need to make sure that we're back in the body and feeling the body. So a way that I suggest people do that is to make a butterfly hug. So you put your hands out in front of you, palms facing you, you cross them over, you link the thumbs and then you've got a little butterfly, and then you move that butterfly to your chest and then you tap with each hand alternately on the chest, and even just as simple as saying your name and your age is a way of being able to call you back to yourself. So, instead of you regressing to whatever age and stage you were, that's getting triggered right now. It's just reminding you of who you are.
Speaker 3:So I am first name, last name, I'm however many years old, and right now I'm really freaking out. I am first name, last name, I'm however many years old, and I don't know why I'm freaking out. I'm first name, last name, I'm however many years old. Name, last name, I'm however many years old, and I've got good reason to freak out. And you just keep going naming everything that's in the space, giving it voice, acknowledging it, and as you do that, while calling yourself back to yourself, it will settle your nervous system and it will help separate what belongs to you from what is out there in the environment that you might just be tapping into wow, and I'm just already thinking um about when our listeners are maybe in that workplace experience or they're in the home and something happens and they may not want to do that in a meeting, but they can absolutely say I need to go to the toilet or just I need a minute.
Speaker 1:Take yourself off, practice some of those techniques and then come back. Even if you're not fully empowered, you're coming back in a calmer together state. That's beautiful, thank you yeah and one of the things that shows up for me is when I'm in that, that state because we all get there at some point I become speechless. I literally lose my voice and it's like afterwards I'm like I should have said this, or that's the response. Is that typical, and if so, why does that happen?
Speaker 3:uh, yeah, it's pretty typical. I think it's uh kind of part of the freeze response. It's less like we sort of cut off at the neck and then, you know, our sense of self goes off and then leaves the body behind, and so the body, without the sense of self, is voiceless, um and so, uh, yeah, we, we often can't find our words, and sometimes what's happened is just so unbelievably outrageous that we're just stunned that there aren't words to be able to give to it. So, yeah, I do think that's really real.
Speaker 3:With part of the freeze response, one of the things or the ways that it's protective is that it does cause us to just be kind of completely still and quiet so that we don't attract the attention of the predator. They think that we're already dead or they miss us and carry on moving past. So I think there is a piece that, when we're completely quiet and the voice is locked up, that is about being able to keep us safe so that we don't get any additional attention that we would rather not get. But when we're older it's kind of frustrating, because it's like there's a zillion things we just wish we could say or name in the moment, and then there's no voice to be able to do it with Again. Well, how I would work with that.
Speaker 3:If somebody said this happens particularly with this person in this kind of meeting all the time is, I would say let's sit in the feeling that this person brings up with you and then let's float back from that feeling to find who in your childhood made you feel like that and then, if we can heal that up, then guess what next time you're in the meeting you're just dealing with this jerk who's here. You're not also having to deal with all of the jerks from the whole of your life oh, I've got a lot of jerks in my life.
Speaker 2:I'm going to practice that, thank you well, this work makes us nicer out there, doesn't it? I mean, I don't want to mean that we have to go out and be really nice to everyone, because we certainly don't, but, you know, it just brings me back into this message of hope and liberation from the inside and feeling good in my own body. And, you know, because I think when we don't speak up and something's happened to us, then it's so easy to get on the sort of personal shaming front, you know, and like the second arrow that goes in after the first arrow, which can be really cruel as well, you know. So anything that helps us to just say this happened, didn't speak up, but I'm going to do something about it and I'm going to take care of myself, release it and then next time, you know, give ourselves permission to be sort of more present within ourselves and to speak up, if that's what's needed, you know, case by case basis, I think, right, right yeah, I think it does allow us to be more compassionate, um.
Speaker 3:one of the things about when we have trauma in our bodies and we haven't healed it is that if we see a similar trauma in someone else or we hear a similar story in someone else, it threatens to wake it up in ourselves, and so it's easy just to say no, no, no, don't talk about that, don't bring that here, don't, don't, don't't go there, because it's going to then wake up everything that I'm feeling, um. And then, once we've actually dealt with everything that we're feeling, then it allows us much more space to be able to be in the presence of somebody else's pain, somebody else's trauma, uh, without it impacting us, um, in quite such a visceral way. I think as well.
Speaker 2:You know, not everybody can be with, like you saying, saying, like you know, certainly in my experience some of the things happened to me were really big and people couldn't be with that and they couldn't be around me actually because it was too hard for them and those people sort of left my life and that was quite traumatic as well.
Speaker 2:But now when I look back you know it's been quite a long time now now I look back and I just think I'm in a good place and the people who are around me know my story, know who I am, can hold space for me if I need that, and there's nothing better than paying someone like you to do that, you know, who knows what she's doing, who can, um, you know, have my back because I think everything's quite complicated, we have conversations and you know, in the outside world, and because I think everything's quite complicated, we have conversations and you know, in the outside world, and I'm always I don't want to upset people or I don't want to make them feel bad, and so I can get caught up in that, whereas you know when, when we're talking and doing the work, I can just be fully in the experience so that I can get the help I need, which is wonderful really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you know, know there's another really interesting thing about trauma symptoms, which is that sometimes a trauma will lie dormant until we actually are in a space of safety and have the resources to be able to unpack it. And so sometimes people come to me and they'll just say why is this coming up now? I was kicking butt, I was just doing really well, and it's like that is why this has come up. So your beautiful dear body has been holding this in reserve, saying I'm not going to bother you with it because you don't have the resources to deal with it now. And guess what? Now, actually you're okay, you've got the resources, you've got the safety, you've got the support, and so now it is safe for me to show you that this needs healing up. And so it's not always, um, about a bad thing or about a weak thing. Sometimes it's actually the deepest compliment that something will emerge for healing, because it's saying you are now in a space that you can handle this that's so beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's like being in friendship, you know, with our past and our bodies and our, you know, current moment.
Speaker 2:Isn't it really where we, you know the place of compassion that you talk about that a lot, you know to hold yourself in compassion and, um, it changes everything, I think, because it gets rid of that guilt and the shame that is often ours even in the first place and we can actually just be much softer and kinder to ourselves because, my god, do we deserve it right?
Speaker 2:The other thing I wanted to talk about was confusion, because this has been something that has been very, very much part of my life, from being small, of just not really understanding sometimes what's been going on, feeling like something's changed or like the rug's been pulled from underneath my feet and then thinking everyone else seems to be okay and just that sense of. I've always been seeking and searching for clarity and I'm quite good at helping other people find it, but when it comes to me, I can go into these clouds and I'm like I don't know what's happening and it's really discombobulating and that's when I leave my body. So, please, other people, because you've given me some really great insights into confusion, which gives me a lot of peace, but love it if you could share a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so confusion is a really interesting thing, because when we get that feeling of of confusion, we instantly go inside and think, oh crap, I must've missed something. Now what did I miss? And how do I replay what just happened and how do I figure out what I missed without letting anybody know that I missed it? And how do I replay what just happened and how do I figure out what I missed without letting anybody know that I missed it? And how do I do that without looking stupid when I ask the question? So instantly we feel it, we go into this big internal process and wonder what's going on. And actually what I invite people to do is to suggest that when you feel confused, maybe it's because it's confusing and maybe it's not that you missed anything. It's not that you're stupid, it's not that you're not quite intelligent enough. You don't have to be back in math class wondering why you're not getting it. It's like what was just presented to me was really confusing in that moment. And if you can stay with that and be curious about that rather than going into this internal process, then it actually allows you to be able to stay online and stay in your body, so often when people give you that confusing response, and sometimes it's another way we talk about it as gaslighting.
Speaker 3:So something will get thrown out there that instantly throws us off balance and makes us think that we've missed something or got something wrong, and it's a great defense mechanism.
Speaker 3:It's something that a lot of alcoholics and addicts use a lot to kind of throw you off the scent.
Speaker 3:And what happens? When you're around somebody who routinely uses that tactic, what you'll notice if you sit and think about that person when they're not even there, when you're just in the safety of your own space, and you bring that person up, what you will notice is that usually the bodily sensation that you get actually is this kind of swirl around the head, because the very act of that confusing is to pull you out of your body, pull you away from your power, pull you away from what your body knows and into a swirl where you can't think straight. And as soon as you recognize, oh, that's what's happening, I'm starting to feel the swirl. It's just like aha, I know what this is. I'm going to breathe and I'm going to get myself right back in my body because this ain't going to fly anymore. And what's funny is that as soon as you know what it is and as soon as you project in your body, this ain't going to fly anymore. Guess what they stopped doing it fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 2:because it can feel like you're being set up, and that is the feeling, actually, and actually.
Speaker 3:That's the truth of what is going on being able to.
Speaker 2:You know, for me I just love that. Maybe it's just really confusing, because so much things in life these days is confusing and there's so many different views that people have, and you know, for me it's almost like, well, hold on, what do I, what's going on for me right now and what do I need right now?
Speaker 1:that's where I can come back into and then I can, you know, make a choice and take an action, whereas when I'm sort of trying to work something out, I'm definitely not present yeah, it's interesting because before you, um, you came on to talk to us today, karen and I were chatting about um, our our private Facebook group, because, you know, over recent times there's been a lot of concern for women's liberties and we can see, in so many different parts of the world, you know, women's liberties, women's freedoms, their bodily autonomy it's in real jeopardy, andy, and even if you know what happens in the states, it doesn't come into fruition.
Speaker 1:There's still that real fear and Karen and I were both, you know, responding and talking to people about it, but we hadn't found our voice to say it, sister, to say it out loud. And um, and it was because I think we were still slightly in that trauma state we, we were like trying to figure it all out. There was confusion, it was confusing, still is um. So if you could offer some tips, you know, is it right to just go in there and speak out loud and say I am confused, this is confusing, or is it okay to just, like we did, pause and go and talk to somebody and just check our senses? What's? What top tips can you give to women just going about their daily business, just trying to find their voice?
Speaker 3:I think actually those examples are a great option. So just being able to say, hang on, I didn't quite get that. And there's, we have this history of shame associated with saying that we don't get it or we don't understand it, and actually let's just ditch that because that's not helpful. It's totally okay just to say I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand that. I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand that. Or Cassie Urbanik, who has the book Unbound.
Speaker 3:She suggests that instantly, what you do is you just turn it back and you say, oh, it seems like you're saying blum, blum, blum. Did I get that right? Which is also really helpful because it then forces them to own what it was that they were putting out there, and normally they won't own it, but they will back off and back down. She also has a great suggestion, which is that anytime you feel off balance, you just turn the focus back to them. So even like, where did you get that tie? It's incredibly helpful just to be able to keep yourself from going down into your own focus of what did I miss and just turn the energy back towards them and so practicing that. You can even practice that with girlfriends, so and that can be quite fun to role play the most outrageous thing and then just be able to say, well, that feels a bit confusing, could you elaborate? And even that will stop the dynamic in its tracks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the naming piece, isn't it? Because I think sometimes I always think I need to have answers, and then that stops me as well. But if I can just name something, the answers might come a bit later, but it's just almost that saying look, this is what's happening now, this is in the space, now, this is what I'm feeling, observing, you know, sensing whatever it might be, so that it's like there you go, it's named, and then if the person opposite is, you know, up to no good, should we say, then they know it's been spotted and named, you know, and if they're not, then there's an opportunity to clear something up as well, you know.
Speaker 3:So that, yeah, I feel like that's definitely an empowering one for people and when you get a bit more practice at it, you can actually say did you mean that? How that came out?
Speaker 2:yeah, let's say no, um, you know, because these things are opportunities to have conversations, but obviously we all want to have conversations with the right people, you know. You know you don't want to be going out there and having a conversation about something with someone who is not going to share your view or is going to be aggressive, you know, no one. We don't want to open those conversations up, but we do want to be opening up conversations, um, with the people around us, maybe in our lives or even in the workplace, where it's important that things get named and addressed and even, at times, reported. That's important too. Yeah, my question is if somebody is really struggling right now and they are in the depths of something and they haven't really started you know they haven't started anything new or whatever, but they're really, really struggling what is the one thing that you would say to them right now?
Speaker 3:I see you can't do it by yourself. So again, we go into a shame hole and we think, hey, I've got to sort this out by myself, but you need somebody else's nervous system. You have to have somebody else's nervous system to regulate yours and help you get into the body. So, whoever that somebody else is, and if you can have the resources to be able to find professional help, please go do that. It is such a great investment to do and, depending on where you are in the world, that might be more available to you or not. Even just processing like this.
Speaker 3:This podcast is awesome because it's just starting these conversations, even people seeing you guys on the screen. That is helping regulate their nervous system. It's helping them to normalize what's going on for them. And no, I'm not crazy, this is actually a real response. And so, and YouTube videos just seeing people doing. I have several where I just lead people through different tapping sequences. Again, that is sharing my nervous system with whoever needs it in the moment. So just not doing it alone. So, however, you get to reach out to anybody else who can hold the space for you. That is going to be what is the key agent of healing.
Speaker 1:Oh, I feel so reassured just even hearing you say those words. It's like you've managed to regulate my nervous system for a moment. But yeah, I feel really held just hearing that you did mention that you are on social media or on youtube. So if people wanted to learn more about you, go find these videos. Where where can people find you, jane?
Speaker 3:so my main handle is therapy jane. Uh, so my website is therapyjanecom. Uh, I'm also on linkedin as jane mccampbell stewart, I'm on facebook as j as Jane McCampbell Stewart, I'm on Facebook as Jane McCampbell Stewart and I have a page that is therapy Jane. Instagram therapy Jane underscore, but generally, I think if you just google therapy Jane, I'm going to pop up somewhere on one of those spaces and we'd just love to connect with anybody who needs needs. Some would like some advice, would like some normalizing. I also offer a bunch of training to people who are in the healing and helping professions to help them be able to respond when trauma and PTSD walks through the door, and so I'm always welcoming anybody who wants to learn more about that.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm just heading over there right now.
Speaker 2:I have done the course and I cannot recommend it highly enough. Um, also, I saw that you were doing like one where you can actually, you know, buy the package and do it in your own time, which I think is fantastic. I mean, I actually genuinely believe that the more people who get access to you and your work, the better, because it's going to help people so much on so many different levels. So, yeah, yeah, I really, really want to just double underline that one, and we will also post some links into the promotion and everything that we do so that people can find you easily, because it's important.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And the more we can get this work out in the world, then the more healing that can happen and then the world will be a better place. So yeah, share it wide.
Speaker 2:The time is now. Now, as I would say. Um, I just want to wrap up and thank you so much for sharing so openly and generously your experiences, your insights, your wisdom and your some of your techniques. Um, I use these, these things, every single day, so I just really want to pass that along to the listeners, to say that, no matter what you're going through, no, matter, no matter how dark it might seem, um, you can do some simple things and it will definitely help you to get into the right space again and that you know it is possible to heal from, you know, deep, dark trauma. So, thank you, and let's um, yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you. We are so grateful to have you here.
Speaker 3:I'm so grateful for the work you're doing in the world and just encouraging these really important conversations with women. Thank you, thank you and thank you for having me on here as a guest.
Speaker 1:It's beautiful to be part of your diet so thanks for listening and we can't wait to welcome you next time.
Speaker 2:Until then use your voice, journal speak or sing out loud. You do it. We hope you join us in saying it's a star.