Say it Sister...
Lucy and Karen, two 40-somethings, are always chatting about life, and all that it has to throw at them, and now want to share their raw, honest conversations with you. Their journey of self-discovery and healing is something many of us can relate to. We all possess a unique power within us, but life’s trials often knock us off course. They have the tools, the courage to speak up and simply say it as it is, so you might feel seen, and understood and gain practical tools and techniques for self-discovery and personal growth during the changes we experience.
Say it Sister...
Mum Guilt: The pressures of being the perfect Mum and making the perfect Christmas
After navigating the whirlwind of motherhood with triplets while juggling her career, Leela Green joins us to share her transformative journey from coping with mum guilt to mastering self-compassion. If you've ever felt the weight of perfectionism, especially as the festive season looms, Leela's story and expertise will resonate deeply. As a former book editor turned coach, she offers invaluable insights into managing the emotional rollercoaster of motherhood, particularly during the holidays when pressures can peak.
Leela takes us through the challenges of balancing entrepreneurship and the demands of being a parent, revealing her personal epiphanies about self-care and the perils of striving for unattainable standards. Her candid reflections shed light on the importance of listening to your body and adjusting to motherhood's unique demands, especially when faced with the complexities of a high-risk pregnancy. Through her experiences, we explore strategies for maintaining realistic expectations and finding peace amidst chaos, offering a relatable perspective for anyone juggling career and family life.
As we discuss the societal pressures and expectations surrounding new mothers, Leela encourages moms to chart their own course, trusting their instincts over societal norms. The conversation becomes particularly poignant as we explore the festive period, emphasizing the need for authentic Christmas traditions that prioritize love and connection. With tips on managing holiday stress and setting boundaries, Leela reminds us of the joy in simple, heartfelt traditions that align with personal values rather than conforming to external pressures. Join us for a heartfelt and empowering discussion that aims to foster a kinder, more compassionate community for mothers everywhere.
Hello and welcome to the Say it Sister podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm Lucy and I'm Karen, and we're thrilled to have you here. Our paths crossed years ago on a shared journey of self-discovery, and what we found was an unshakable bond and a mutual desire to help others heal and live their very best lives.
Speaker 1:For years, we've had open, honest and courageous conversations, discussions that challenged us, lifted us and sometimes even brought us to tears. We want to share those conversations with you. We believe that by letting you into our world, you might find the courage to use your voice and say what really needs to be said in your own life.
Speaker 2:Whether you're a woman seeking empowerment, a self-improvement enthusiast or someone who craves thought-provoking dialogue, join us, as we promise to bring you real, unfiltered conversations that encourage self-reflection and growth.
Speaker 1:So join us as we explore, question and grow together. It's time to say say it, sister.
Speaker 2:Oh, today is a very exciting day. We've got an amazing person with us today and I'm going to talk to you a little bit about our favourite topic, which is mum guilt. We want to unpack it. We want to talk about the pressures of perfectionism that we all experience, especially over the Christmas holidays. For me, it's already started. We're already doing a day by day countdown. We're at 36 days, so I'm already feeling a level of how am I going to get to the end, and I feel like we've all experienced mum guilt in many ways, shapes or forms. Yet it's something that's very unique to us and it lives inside our bodies and we have our own experiences. So we want to start to talk about this as a topic that I think is really helpful for women to get clear on within themselves, like what is mummy guilt for me, why do I feel it, when do I feel it and how can I support myself? To come back into you, know what's happening now and actually feel more at peace with what's happening.
Speaker 2:So today's guest is called Leela Green. She is a mum guilt extraordinaire. She's a mum of three boys who are two years old. She's written books, she's a coach and specifically has a model that helps women overcome mum guilt at Christmas and beyond, and she's also going to share some of her own horror stories of the Christmas period. So welcome to this space. Welcome. To Say it, sister, we are so grateful to have you here and we just want to hear all about you, and I know Lucy's going gonna also bring in her side of it, because you two know each other really really well.
Speaker 1:so welcome, welcome, welcome yeah, oh, it's so good. Good to see you, because we haven't actually spoken um for a couple of years now, and actually the last time we did speak um, it was at the business book Awards and you had a rather large bump, which then turned into these three amazing little boys that you've now got. But the way that we met was you and your brother were my book editors and it was kind of fascinating the whole process because you made me feel so held and supported. Without you my book would never have been born. So I just want to celebrate you for a moment. But then obviously the world has changed and you're in a very different position in your life and your brother's off doing his thing as well. So I'm really just intrigued eh, how are you today? How are you coping with it all? But also, how did you get to this switch, this change?
Speaker 3:Well, actually just after I saw you. So we had this very glam gala awards dinner, you know, like massive pregnancy bump trying to fit into some kind of stretch bodycon outfit, wondering if you can get away with wearing trainers and needing a chair all the time. And then the next morning I actually had a really serious bleed and I was ambulanced into hospital and I thought I was going to lose babies. That morning it was almost like a miscarriage. Um, amazingly, when I got there, um, the top doctor scammed me and said oh, actually, the boys are all completely oblivious, you're fine, but the other doctors weren't so confident and they thought I might have emergency labour. So just literally like 12 hours after I saw you and we were looking all glamourously, I was in a hospital trolley and my husband was like coming back from work to meet me in the labour ward and he was like, why in the labour ward it's not time? And so, yeah, that was, that was a really crazy time. But I think that sort of typifies this experience of mums who are trying to kind of carry on before they leave work as if it's not there, as if it's not there, as if it's not happening. And I know it's not just me, because I've spoken to other mums about this and you almost feel like you have to double down on being a brilliant employee and getting everything done because you don't want the fact you're growing a baby or babies to make a difference, to show that you're less committed to your clients. Because you know that you're less committed to your clients because you know I wasn't less committed to my clients.
Speaker 3:I wanted to be there at that party and everything, but I was kind of running headlong at it and instead of thinking I need to slow down before I go on mat leave. You know I was trying to hand things over and stuff like that. But I was also like trying to launch new products and my brother, who I ran the business with, was like what are you doing? We don't need this. Like we don't need to launch a new product now, why don't you just take it easy? Like, especially as you've been hospitalized? Like come on, man. And I was like no, no, I'm a female entrepreneur, I can keep going. I'm gonna have meetings in the hospital cafe. Entrepreneur, I can keep going. I can have meetings in the hospital cafe. As long as I get sound cancelling headphones, I'll be fine. And I was like what are you?
Speaker 2:doing, I think as well. Just to say like, being pregnant can be very stressful, because there, you know, there's many reasons why it's stressful. But also that fear of you know, is everything okay with my baby inside, our babies in your, in your situation can be terrifying, and I feel like so. I mean, I certainly had a huge. I had PT.
Speaker 2:I was diagnosed with PTSD when I was pregnant, so for me it was like a majorly scary time and beautiful as well, because my baby was growing, um, but I definitely, definitely knew that I had to sort of take care of myself in a different way because I was really scared that I was going to lose her because I'd already miscarried her twin. So I sort of did approach this from a place of taking care of myself and at the same time, I think we just designed, or we tell ourselves, that we have to push through to get to the place of having our baby or whatever it might be in life. You know the place of having our baby or whatever it might be in life and you know it's just so important, isn't it, to just listen on the inside and and acknowledge that we're actually carrying, not just carrying life, but we're carrying ourselves on this journey of, like, getting into having our babies. It's huge.
Speaker 1:I've got to say I was just like Leila I I powered on through and with my first I was doing an hour's commute at the M42 every day and, and I remember, a week before my maternity leave was supposed to start, I've got such a pain in my shoulder because obviously, not only are carrying all the weight but trying to drive, you know, in a car with this huge bump in front of me. Everything was just misaligned and um, and it took me weeks to actually go to the doctor and when I got there they said we're going to sign you off for a week. I was like no, you can't, because in another week I'm going on maternity leave. They're like Lucy, what are you doing? So they signed me off and I felt so guilty about going back just for one more week and then going off for another year and, um, it was guilt.
Speaker 1:It was guilt because, uh, for me, I was letting down my colleagues, what would they think of me? I'm a strong, independent woman. Periods and babies don't stop me, and I'm just like. Now, you know, 16, 17, 18 years later, I'm like what on earth was I thinking?
Speaker 3:I know, but it's when you're in it you can't see it. I think you're so deep in it, and especially if you're a woman whose career has been a really central part of your identity and you know we're ambitious, we want to achieve things, we want to launch things, we want to do things, like I can't switch that off. Even now I can't switch that off, like that's just in me. But it wasn't until I actually became a mum that I realized I'd been ignoring my body, like my body had been giving me signals like you need to rest, you need to slow down, you need to, you need to stop, you need to do this, or you're hungry, you're thirsty, or even you know when we're at our desk all day just getting up to go to the loo, we don't do it it's like oh, I've just got to finish.
Speaker 3:Oh. And then the call. I just got to check Instagram and it's like oh, you know, we're not even doing like. I wasn't even doing the basics of like eating, drinking and going to the toilet in my early years of entrepreneurship. Right where you're in startup mode and it really is, every minute counts, you know. All hands to the pump, we're desperate for every sale, really got to push everything.
Speaker 3:I sort of stopped being a human being in that phase and, looking back, it's frightening how easily I could ignore these signals that were coming from my body like you need to go get some lunch now. It would often get to like three, four o'clock and I wouldn't have had lunch Yet when I was pregnant I was like we've got to eat. You. You know you're nourishing three babies. You've got to like stop messing around now. You've got to kind of take this seriously.
Speaker 3:Um, and like we said a moment ago, karen, um, I had two miscarriages before this pregnancy and the miscarriages I'd had weren't from high-risk pregnancies and this was like super high-risk pregnancy, like red flags all over the show, um, and we were having scans every two weeks and I was hugely anxious every time that we had a scan that it would be ending in bad news. So, you know, on the one hand, I've got this emotional, anxious journey that I'm on, I've also got the physical implications of having three babies and the burden of that on my body, and then my brain is going. You're a female entrepreneur, don't worry about anything that's happening down there, just push on through, don't let anyone down. Um, and, as you can imagine, that's just not going to work, yeah, and it's hard, isn't it?
Speaker 2:because you don't want to think the worst stuff, because that's not going to help. And yet you're going through this experience and there are valid fears, and I think we're all taught to disconnect from our bodies and to not listen to what we need, including like going to the toilet. You know, we just hold it a little bit longer and it becomes something that becomes quite unsafe for us because, you know, sometimes we're at a point where we are so stressed or so burnt out or so overwhelmed that it's quite a long, it's quite hard to get back to our center or to get back to a place that feels like you know that's healthy for us and that's quite. That's the danger zone. I would say.
Speaker 2:Um, it sounds like to me you've been on a huge journey of listening, you know, to what you need on on the inside and then taking that energy and that information out into the world, and my guess is it's not about perfection, that it's actually about something that feels much more real. I mean, you've got three, three two-year-old boys in and you're you know, you're a working mom, so there's already a lot in your space. Tell us a little bit about, about that, because you have learned a lot through. What I'm hearing is a woman who's learned a lot, had a lot of experiences and is connecting deeply to that you know and helping others yeah, definitely so.
Speaker 3:Um, just to pick up on your point on perfectionism, I used to be a bit of perfectionist and Lucy has worked for me and will know that I have high standards and I can be a bit demanding and sometimes people can't like my brother did find that kind of annoying about working with me because you know it's like if we can get away with an eight out of ten, I'm like yes, we can make it a ten out of ten and actually that generally does us quite well in our careers.
Speaker 3:The people who are like that get promoted. You know we deliver the goods every single time. If there's a problem that needs fixing, you know we'll be there, we'll be sorting it out, and so from a kind of professional perspective, I think my perfectionism got me through Oxford and got me launching successful businesses and actually worked quite well for me. But the darker side of it is when you're. What I found in motherhood is that you know you can't even be a perfectionist with one baby, and trying to be a perfectionist with three babies you will make yourself ill. So just after I got discharged, after that bleed, we went to a training day that the twins trust, which is a charity for twins and triplets run, and it's kind of like NCT, but just one intense day, and they gave us these worksheets with how many hours we thought each different baby task would take, like feeding, nappy changes and whatever. And however, we totted this up and, like my husband works in a hedge fund, he's much better at numbers than I am.
Speaker 2:We couldn't make it 24.
Speaker 3:It's like there's more than 24 hours work in 24 hours. How are we going to do this? And subsequently it has actually been proven in an academic study. It's something like 28 hours, 12 minutes work a day. So even before the babies arrived, I was like anything that isn't essential survival we are just going to have to ditch, because, looking at this as a project manager, you know we've got to think about resource allocation and things are tight.
Speaker 3:Mountains are extremely tight here, so we're looking for efficiencies. You know, like, first up, we've got to hire someone. Uh, so we've got a maternity nurse in. You could teach us all the hacks and the time-saving ways and best setup routines. And it's like, okay, we need her to show us how to be efficient and then we need to just trim everything and as part of that, um, ditching the perfectionism. Also, comparison comes into it. Because you know you, I came off instagram, I came off socials for a year, because you know you look on there and there's all these like, even in the twin and triplet community, like immaculately dressed children in perfectly matching outfits in homes that look like interior magazines. And then you look around yours and we mentioned earlier, like the fact that there's laundry hanging everywhere and you know, like sticky formula, milk splattered up the wall and just piles of bedding and nappies. And it's my life doesn't look like that everything's chipped, all the furniture's chipped.
Speaker 2:You just get to that point, don't you?
Speaker 3:and you're just like, oh my god, I know, and it's like how, how, how are they doing that? So actually I felt I needed to remove myself from those sorts of environments, because otherwise it's like society or social media is saying hey, mama, this is the bar and you're right down here and you're never going to get there. How do you feel about?
Speaker 1:that I've got to say. I am so glad my youngest was born in 2007, when Facebook was invented, um, because, and then Instagram wasn't even a thing, and so I didn't really have that comparison and I took the lead from the elders in my life and my nan, who'd had 10 children in a three-bedroomed council house back in you know the 50s, 60s and, um, she just said Lucy, it's really simple if your baby cries, pick it up. If it's thirsty, give it something to drink. Um, you know, take it outside for a walk because you know it'll be stimulated and you can just have some head space.
Speaker 1:And this is from somebody who was born in 1913, just giving me that that, because I didn't need to go well, I didn't have any of this social media telling me what motherhood was. But it all changed with my um, second child, um, by the time we got to school age, because then it had seeped in and every new gadget and toy and gizmo and all of those kind of things and the rush to the, the best birthday party or all of those kind of things. It just got insane. So I really feel for any mothers, um, right now who and I think you did the right thing, switch it all off, um, but I don't think many people are strong enough to do that, because, after all, that's that's how they do their own bragging rights of look how well I'm doing, and it's a connection.
Speaker 3:Sorry, it's quite a lonely time and when you're not actually socializing, like you don't actually go and see your friends because you can't but you know you just happen to be up at four in the morning breastfeeding it's very easy to just kind of grab your phone and that's sort of a faux proxy for friendship, even though it's not at all, and it's actually something that leaves you feeling much poorer than when you picked up your phone. I think that's in that new mum phase. It can easily happen, just because you're not really you're not really having those conversations with elders or with friends, so much because you're just up in the middle of the night trying to pass the time you're in your little bubble, aren't you, and you're reaching for things in a way.
Speaker 2:And I understand how I certainly was like you breastfeeding in the night and, you know, would be on social media, because I just also, I got married when my child was six and a half months old and so I was literally thinking, oh my, I've got bride my dresses to order.
Speaker 2:And I mean, I look back now and I was like, you know, I'm glad I got married, but it was not the right time for me to take, you know, like a commitment of a wedding day. Um, oh yeah. So when I think back to that time, I just think about the madness of it, because there was so many different dimensions going on and I didn't really give myself permission to readdress what I might actually really need in the moment, as opposed to what you know, continuing with a plan that had been made before. So it was kind of a crazy, crazy time. And I feel like when we are, when we are mums, and especially in the new phase, we don't really know. We know we've changed, we've had a life-changing experience. We don't really know who we are, so a little bit like in no man's land, and then you know you're caring for your baby or your babies, and it is so encompassing that we're a little bit like what's happening to me, what's happening to me, and we focus on the immediates.
Speaker 3:The survival mechanic kicks in um we can't really think beyond that in that phase, because you know you want to do the best for your child. That's what mum guilt feeds on.
Speaker 3:It feeds on our desire to be a good mom and to do the best for our children, which is obviously like primal and inbuilt in all of us. But when you're kind of exhausted and I think well, isn't I really talking about my experience, but probably for your first child particularly when you don't feel like you know what you're doing, you're very vulnerable to influence and persuasion, and not just from social media but also from mother-in-laws, from you know people, health visitors, midwives, you know they're all telling me what I should be doing and they've got clue. It's like to try and look after three babies on your own like every 24 hours and do 24 feeds on your own every 24 hours. This advice they're giving me it's just nonsensical. So I think that's why, for me, I reached this sort of enlightenment point earlier than many other mothers, because it was just not going to work and I was given a book by a friend of mine it's like what your baby should be doing every week which she had found helpful and she's trying to be helpful. But because my baby was so premature and had all sorts of complications they were just way off these milestones and actually reading this book every week just made me feel really bad, like it, made me feel like they were failing, that I was failing them, that it didn't make me feel optimistic about their health and their future. So I just stopped reading the book and I think you know it was like that, with all of the, the narrative, the advice, the stuff that's out there wasn't written for a mum with premature triplets.
Speaker 3:So me trying to oh, that's the gold standard of what life should be like with a, say, six week old baby, and I'm like right down here and it just doesn't make you feel good. When you've got that high expectation and you've got that low reality, you're stuck in this gap of not good enough enough and it doesn't help me and it doesn't help my babies. So I actually just found it much more useful to kind of to do my own thing and to do it my own way. And obviously people come along all the time and say, oh, you should be doing this, you should be doing that, um. But actually when you're kind of making aligned decisions and you can say, no, actually this is just what works for me. I know it's an unpopular, I know I'm an outlier with this view, which I am on many things, but this is just what works for me. So you know, I haven't asked for your opinion.
Speaker 2:I hear that. I mean, it's that idea of alternative as well, like there are other ways to do things and you're finding the other way. And I suppose there's lots of like mums out there that want to find the other way too, you know, because your experience is valid, because the fact that you've experienced it mean that many other women are experiencing it, and so, you know, we don't have to speak to everyone in the world, but it's like the people who think, well, hold on, do I want to read the baby book? So I want to compare my child to a book? No, I don't. Do I want to read the baby book? So I want to compare my child to a book? No, I don't. Do I want to keep torturing myself on the inside and go for something that's not realistic? No, I don't.
Speaker 2:And there you are, you know. Here you are in the gap, holding the space for that, which is so important because it gives women permission to be able to say that doesn't work for me. But actually, so what is going to work for me? And, and I think we all need, we need our inner guides to work inside of us, but we also do need people that are willing to, um, stand on you know a platform and say you know, there are other ways and I've developed something for you, so talk. Talk to us about um, talk to us about what women can do. You know, if they're dealing with mum again, we're going to talk about Christmas in a little while.
Speaker 3:That's why we're all dressed, you know, in christmas here, so just to let everyone know yeah, more generally, um, this is just what I wear. Um, no, more generally, I think, um, like you were saying, those, those books and things like that really can be toxic and actually prior to actually my children being born. They were apps, like I can't remember what it was called, but there's an NHS version of it, where they compare your fetus, your embryo size, to a fruit or vegetable every week and like it seems kind of sweet or twee, like I remember my friend texted me, oh my baby's the size of a raspberry, but actually my
Speaker 3:babies were so small. Every scan we had they were off the chart, like they were, you know, they were not in the normal growth development. So even those apps I ditched early on because, like you know, the app would be like, oh, your baby's the size of sweet potato. How big is sweet potato, you know? And then actually when you go to your scan and they say, oh, they're measuring at you know seven mils or whatever You're like, well, that's not the size of sweet potato. All of these things are really unhelpful. So in terms of kind of mum guilt, generally, I think expectations are the main problem.
Speaker 3:There are huge expectations on mums today and I think what's happening is when there's so many external expectations in society about what a mum should look like, what mum should be able to do, what the mum's career should be like, um, what their body should be like. You know everything. Even if we don't consciously agree with these things, we end up internalizing them and then we have placed those expectations upon ourselves. We just kind of absorb them, even if we don't actually agree with them. So the first thing to do is just to kind of accept your reality rather than go for the expectation. So acceptance is a huge part of buddhism. It sounds really simple but it's actually quite hard. But you know, sometimes you're not going be able to do, you're not going to be able to go travelling on that leave if you've got three babies Like that might have been my expectation Right Now. I've got to pick it down because I've got to accept that actually even getting three babies ready to go in the pram can take 45 minutes, and then we've only got like another hour and a half before they're going to need another feed. So it's not really going to work. And I think, because there almost seems like taboo around motherhood, we have these expectations and then when it arrives, we're like hang on a minute, I'm way off. I'm way off where I thought I'd be, I'm way off where everyone else is and that's really not helpful at all. So ditching, shaking off those expectations.
Speaker 3:And next one is priorities, not perfection. So we've spoken about perfectionism before. I think it's something we need to be aware of, because even when we think we're not being perfectionists, it flares up and we start thinking, oh, you know, a good mum should take their kids to see Santa or whatever it's like. Well, what if you can't? What if it's too much? Like what if you've got limited time? And it's much more important to prioritize rather than to be perfect, and to prioritize for you not what your mother-in-law thinks is important, not what social media is telling you is important, but actually you know what matters to you, and if that might be music, perhaps you're from a musical family and getting your kid to a music class once every two weeks is all you're going to put your energy into.
Speaker 3:Then that's fine, Like don't worry about the other things, but I think when people are kind of out of alignment, they're using other people's values and other people's priorities and then it can just get really exhausting. So you know what's important to you. So the state of my house is not a priority. I have a cleaner a couple of times a week, but it's still awful, and it has been since I've become a mother, and I'm okay with that because you know, I would rather cook the boys proper food from scratch and have a kitchen that's trashed, then give them packets and I'm nothing against people who are choosing packets, but that's just my choice. So you know everything you're saying yes to, you're also saying no to something else, and being aware of that.
Speaker 3:Um, next is about compassion. There is not enough compassion. There's not enough self-compassion, there's not enough compassion for other mums who are doing their best. There is too much comparison and too much judgment, and this could be. You know, I've had comments from people when I'm just walking down the street. I've been trolled Like. I really think as a community, as a sisterhood, there needs to be a lot more compassion. You know everyone, no matter what their situation, is doing their best. Okay, they might have taken a different path to you. They might have chosen something completely different.
Speaker 3:They might not have the resources to do the things that other people on social media do it just gotta say say it, sister, that is absolutely the truth I know, but we, we just need um, we need a lot more compassion, because, you know, some of the meanest comments I've had in articles that have been written about me and on social media have come from other mums, like what is that about?
Speaker 2:you know, and these are not mums that know what it's actually like to look after three babies yeah, and when there is, you know, like, when somebody stands up and and talks about things from a, I would say, from a heart place, it can be quite threatening. And so this is when you know, the trigger points come in. And I feel like, unless we do our own personal work, and you know, as we become mums, we are going to get triggered by things and things are going to happen and it's not going to go to plan, and then we have to go in and do our own personal work so that we can be out in the world from a much more kinder, compassionate and together place. Otherwise, we're coming from trigger points all the time and that is a threat on the inside of the body. So we're having this experience.
Speaker 2:You know, oh my God, I'm so triggered, I'm so triggered and I think there's not enough space and time for people to just go hold on a minute. Can I just? I just need to stop and I need to take care of myself that I don't, you know, respond in a really awful way to someone because what's that going to do? It's so unkind, and yet you've got triggered people, you know, responding to their own triggers. It's it's, you know. So that compassionate place is really, really important.
Speaker 2:I don't think we can say that too many times. What you say, you know we don't know. Until you work and walk in somebody else's shoes, you don't know what that person is going through. I think we're all ultimately doing the best that we can, um, but you're always gonna. You know it's that kind of place of tension and we know that fighting is going to create more war. So there has to be a different response mechanism. So that's what I'm hearing and I just want to say I'm sorry that you've had that response as well, because it's so unfair really ultimately, yeah, and it's an internal and an external thing.
Speaker 3:I think you know, people that are probably more compassionate to themselves are probably more compassionate to me and other mums as well, and it's people who are probably giving me a really hard time. They're probably giving themselves a really hard time as well, and I think the fact that I'm quite vocal about the fact I take care of myself, I made time to go to the gym. I had a nanny when they were younger so that I could sleep and so that I could go to the gym and do a yoga class. I could make sure that my needs were met. My battery was chopped up enough that I felt ready to come back and do another 24 hours of this. People felt really triggered by that. Like a good mum shouldn't be out at the gym. A good mum, you know you should be able to do it all without help. You know all of this stuff. It's it's triggering for people because I'm like oh, I'm not doing it like you, I'm looking after myself and.
Speaker 3:I have to say that it.
Speaker 1:It doesn't it, it almost amplifies as the children grow up. So, um, you'll go through the whole nursery school process and then you'll start the meeting people at the school gates and I was the working mum at the time and you had the mums who were able to go and pick them up before and after school and do that, whereas I wasn't. I was there turning up in my suit, um sort of like kicking them out the car as I then sped to work and um, and I felt such guilt about that and that then I started volunteering for the PTA, just so that I could feel like I am a good mum. Look, I show up for these things. And then you go through that whole stage of um, getting them into the the right high schools. Then it gets into into the stage of they have all these different clubs, and then you've got limited time, limited resources, but you don't do ballet and you do gymnastics and you do brownies and you do this, and next weekend they'll be climbing Mount Snowdon. What do you mean? You haven't got time. All of this stuff goes on and on and on. And then the judgment when it comes to GCSE time oh, so what did your children get, uh, what grades. Oh, I'm so super proud of Johnny eight stars all over the place.
Speaker 1:It continues and it continues and it takes that real strength to be able to say, yeah, but I know my child, I know you know my, know my household, our values. They're thriving, they're doing great. And so I'm going to take us into that segue of the Christmas because, honestly, I've, obviously I've done 18 Christmases now, no, 20 Christmases, oh my Lord. And every time it gets to about this time of year and the guilt, the pressure that women tend to put themselves under, it gets ramped up.
Speaker 1:And Karen and I were chatting about this and I remember thinking, well, where was this rule book? But it's the mums that do all the shopping, all the organising, all the wrapping, making sure that you're getting that right item and getting them to the nativity and to this party. And where are the dads usually going out christmas eve scrambling to get the last minute items? And then just imagine it to happen. And so I'm like really curious about you, know you're, you're in year two, second christmas, you've got karen who's there in your fifth, sixth Christmas. What I have to say, my husband does all the shopping.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, you've got it sorted. I have mum guilt because I do nothing on Christmas day, um, but the amount of work that I do in the build up to Christmas day is intense, so I kind of go when I get into mum guilt, I kind of go hold on a minute just get the balance and scales out here. Um, because presents, parties, events, pantos is all done by me, but then my husband will do all the food shopping, getting it all sorted, do the Christmas dinner and I've never made a Christmas dinner in my entire life and I don't plan on me, I don't plan on doing one ever um, so I have a little bit in there, but then I can, I can justify it to myself and go. It doesn't really matter, he loves cooking, you don't? It's a good deal can you justify anything?
Speaker 3:um, yeah, so I've got a three-part model and um, I'll just run through it now. So it's elf. So the first one is eliminate the unnecessary. And I think christmas is a time where people think more is more and you see them even in the supermarkets filling their trolleys with, like multiple versions of the same thing. It's like people who kind of lose their minds and we think we need to try and do eight side dishes even though we've only got a conventional oven and it's never going to fit. And there's this sort of like frenzied mania of like more is more.
Speaker 3:And I think it's like the prioritising piece, like actually what is important to you? Like perhaps you're going to have one christmas family outing, like what would that be? What would be great? Do you want to go ice skating or do you want to go to panto? Like we don't have to do absolutely everything that gets advertised to us, because right now you know retailers, marketers, this is their peak season to get us to spend and we can get into this kind of like frantic rabbit in the headlights moment. So I think it's really important to just eliminate the unnecessary and do what matters to your family and your family might have completely different traditions to other people's family.
Speaker 3:So, growing up, I'm mixed race and my dad's side of the family were Muslim, so you know they had very different celebrations and ideas and things, and other people might feel our family was a bit off. But you know it doesn't matter, it's just what kind of works for you. And then the second point is l let people help you. Now this is exactly what Aaron was talking about, because mums in general feel like they have to be these self-sacrificing martyrs, and I'm so done with that. But Christmas can kill you if you don't allow others to help you.
Speaker 3:You know why should it all be on one person to do all the planning, all the organizing, all the cards, all the inviting, all the event booking. It's just too much work. And actually, you know, other people are often willing to help, um, but we have this tendency to say, no, no, I don't need any help, I can do it on my own. Um, and even with the cooking, you know someone wanders into the kitchen and says, oh, do you need a hand with anything? We're like, no, we've got it all under control, whereas actually we should say, yeah, can you just peel some potatoes for me, that would be great, you know, like we don't need to try and do it all on our own and then finally f forget what everyone else is doing.
Speaker 3:And I think this is really important in the social media world, where you will see influencers having the most aesthetically perfect, curated experiences with their children, who are having the most amazing time, and you haven't got a hope in hell of recreating this. You know, other people might be spending absolute fortunes on presents for their children, money that might be putting them in debt even because you don't know what's real on social media. So I think, looking around what everyone else is doing and thinking, oh well, if everyone else is going to see a Santa at Hamys, then I better spend the £100 that costs for my family too, because otherwise I'm a bad mum. No, it doesn't have to be like that. We really just need to focus on us and what we're doing, because there's so many possibilities of things that you can go to spend your money on on decorations, you could make, things you could cook but we can't. We can't do everything everyone else is doing.
Speaker 1:We just need to focus on what we want to say I grew up um, well, probably most of us did um in the 80s and 90s, where everything was tinsel, bright, colorful, a little bit cheap and tacky, and to me that is Christmas.
Speaker 1:So when I see these trees and this decor on Instagram where it's just white with a touch of pink or something, I'm like that's just not Christmas. And so my um, my daughter, said to her dad about their tree that they have at their house and said I'm really sorry, dad, but I so prefer mum's tree because it's a memory tree, because since they've been little, we've had a different decoration, um, bought by either us or friends or family, and none of them match. They've all got different names on or whatever, but I can place every single one, and as we get them out of the box and start decorating them, the girls are now saying oh remember, nanny got me that one, or we got that one on holiday here, or whatever. And it becomes a memory tree and it is bright, it is tacky, it is all over the place and it is our perfect Christmas. And so I'd just really like to hear, before we find out where people can get in touch with you, um, what's your favorite Christmas tradition?
Speaker 3:that is low guilt well, my favorite part of Christmas and this is from before I had children is songs. I love Christmas carols and I'm in a choir, so every year there is some form of Christmas concert, even if it's just singing at craft fair, and now my baby's come and watch me sing, and I really love the magic of Christmas music. I mean, I also love Buble and you know all of the Christmas songs that are on the radio, but the music is a really special part of it and I think that's something that you know. Now my kids join in with jingle bells and they've got these little shakers with bells on them. They love it when you go, hey.
Speaker 3:So it's the cute things like that that I want to try and kind of keep going as traditions, rather than it just being all about material spending and panic buying. I hate shopping, so I'm not going to get caught up in all of that. That just feels so stressful to me. I want to try and keep it kind of pure and, like you say, the things that you remember from your own childhood, which in my case would have been all the tack of the 80s as well.
Speaker 2:What about you, karen? Well, you know what? My my mum was over yesterday with my dad and so they went off and they made crackers, but they're like handmade crackers and I'm not supposed to know about it, but I've known for ages, because Catalina cannot keep a secret, so you know. And then they're doing all this like we're going to do the. So the whole thing has been quite sweet and then she's hidden them. Catalina's hidden these crackers underneath her bed, so I've seen them. As I walk into a room, she's put a sign outside the door saying please do not come in or else I'll call the police.
Speaker 2:So it's just been becoming this really entertaining thing, and it's the first time they've done it. And then she showed me one, and these are the best things ever. They've got like photographs on them of us. I've got one, richard's got one. They're just so tacky but absolutely brilliant. So I feel like this could be a new tradition for us, for as long as they want to go off and do that together, because it's like God knows what's on the inside, but it's fabulous. So I mean, for me it's things like that that make you laugh, that you know there is an effort that's gone into it, there's a lot of love that's gone into it and it's just just fills love that's gone into it and it's just just fills my heart with joy and I feel like, you know, we are really thinking about something that's about celebrating, it's about love and connection.
Speaker 2:I think these crackers are everything for me. So if I didn't get anything at Christmas, I'd be very, very happy just with these crackers. They're just gorgeous. So I think it's that that we we're all looking to create, but we get caught up in the negativity or the selling um, and we're driven. You know, we are driven from our guilt and shame in some ways if we get it wrong, you know. So I think, keep it simple. I think for me it's all about simplicity. How can people find you? Where will, where will you be?
Speaker 3:so I am Layla Green, I'm on LinkedIn and I've got a weekly newsletter. My Mama Mag goes out and you can sign up for that at laylagreencom forward slash mama-mag and that's all kind of about crazy things that are happening to me and my triplets and also practical mama empowerment.
Speaker 2:And you're very active on LinkedIn as well. That's the other thing that I did want to say that you, you know I've been really it's been so heartwarming to see what you're talking about on LinkedIn and, you know, given this greater platform for mums, working mums, you know, who are probably trying to like, work, many different dimensions and bringing in the reality of what we experience in our bodies, because there's a lot goes on in our bodies, um, that we don't tend to talk about and then try to over override. So I just want to say thank you for taking your work into linkedin and making it a safe space for women to learn and to share oh yeah, and I doubted myself on this.
Speaker 3:So I did actually come off linkedin. Um, I had been kind of posting maybe once a month or something after I had my babies, just because, you know, as a female entrepreneur, you feel like you get forgotten quite quickly. So I felt like I still needed to kind of remind people of my existence. But when I started talking about mum guilt and how I was feeling and my mindset and the tools I was using and challenging social norms, I got some really nasty comments and these were actually from mums and we earlier the judgment. The mum judgment thing is horrendous and it upset me so much. I came off the platform for a while and I have started an Instagram which is kind of a bit more frivolous, which I also use at triplet underscore super mama, and I was like, oh, maybe, maybe you just can't talk about parenting and motherhood on LinkedIn. And then a lot of my friends in the entrepreneurial community were like you get idiots everywhere, leila yeah and it's true, and it's not many, is it?
Speaker 3:it's always like one or two people versus the hundreds of people who are really lovely and supportive. But you just remember those cutting words of those one or two people. And then I thought, yeah, you know what? I'm just going to go out there and say it. And also I think, because I'm not in a large organisation, I'm not an employee, I'm at liberty to say things that other people may not feel comfortable saying. So I think within the kind of freelance entrepreneurial world, people are quite open, but I'm noticing that it's less so with employees that people are worried about you might read it or what their boss might think.
Speaker 3:But I feel like the more we just put this stuff out there, the more we normalize the conversation please don't stop.
Speaker 2:I mean, I do really feel like all of us are women. You know, we're all mums and we're all entrepreneurs. We've all, we're all self-employed. It's so important that we keep speaking up, using our voices, because it gives other women permission and a level of safety to be able to do the same thing, even if they're doing it, you know, just within themselves and having a conversation within themselves, and admitting what they're struggling with or what's happening for them and what they need more of. So I feel like you know this is the space for you and we're so glad that you did come here today. I'm going to hand back to Lucy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the year ahead, when we think about setting intentions, we want more, we want more of saying it, sister, we want more of banishing mum guilt. And just for the rest of the season, please remember, you can have your own little elf, and that will really make your Christmas a special one. So, to all our listeners, to Leila Karen, wishing you a very happy Christmas. So thanks for listening and we can't wait to welcome you next time.
Speaker 2:Until then use your voice, journal, speak or sing out loud. However you do it, we hope you join us in saying it sister.