Say it Sister...
Lucy and Karen, two 40-somethings, are always chatting about life, and all that it has to throw at them, and now want to share their raw, honest conversations with you. Their journey of self-discovery and healing is something many of us can relate to. We all possess a unique power within us, but life’s trials often knock us off course. They have the tools, the courage to speak up and simply say it as it is, so you might feel seen, and understood and gain practical tools and techniques for self-discovery and personal growth during the changes we experience.
Say it Sister...
Why Women Should Stand Together Instead of Apart
The episode centres around fostering sisterhood amid the frictions of modern feminism. We dive into the sister wound, examining how deep-rooted societal constructs lead to competition among women rather than collaboration.
- Insights into the sister wound and its impact on relationships between women
- Discussion on the challenges women face today regarding feminism
- Renouncing the concept of misandry as a misunderstanding
- Aligning support for authentic empowerment and rejecting diluted buzzwords
- Personal stories about healing and building bridges among women
- Tips for moving beyond the sister wound for collective empowerment
Join us in redefining feminism and embracing the power of women supporting women.
Hello and welcome to the Say it Sister podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm Lucy and I'm Karen, and we're thrilled to have you here. Our paths crossed years ago on a shared journey of self-discovery, and what we found was an unshakable bond and a mutual desire to help others heal and live their very best lives.
Speaker 1:For years, we've had open, honest and courageous conversations, discussions that challenged us, lifted us and sometimes even brought us to tears. We want to share those conversations with you. We believe that by letting you into our world, you might find the courage to use your voice and say what really needs to be said in your own life, whether you're a woman seeking empowerment, a self-improvement enthusiast or someone who craves thought-provoking dialogue, join us, as we promise to bring you real, unfiltered conversations that encourage self-reflection and growth.
Speaker 1:So join us as we explore, question and grow together. It's time to say say it, sister.
Speaker 2:Welcome everybody, welcome sisters. Today we're dedicating this episode to the real face of feminism. We're going to talk about the sister wound and why women are pitched against each other and why this story continues to be perpetuated in every corner of the world Alongside the idea of true empowerment, because we need to discuss the myths, we need to out the stigmas for women who are true feminists and really talk about what we're facing right now in the world. Women are facing huge challenges and attacks to their civil and human rights. We live in an unequal world and the fight is not over yet. The fight is against the patriarchy, not each other, and we really want to underline that today.
Speaker 2:I need to talk about something that is driving me insane at the moment. It's a backlash against feminism by women who are claiming to be feminists. On LinkedIn, of all places, you know, even our professional pages are being hijacked on so many different levels and the pieces that I'm seeing they don't talk about the good parts of feminism. It's all negative and there's a problem for me because nothing is perfect and we're all work in progress, but we really need to have more positive and balanced views and I'm sick to my back teeth of all the negative comments and social posts that are anti-women and anti-women's work, written by women with the aim of creating disruption and growing an audience, and I've almost been thinking about it a lot. I'm thinking about this idea of you know feminist clickbait, where you know, you see something, you go on there, you put a comment on and it's just all churned up and it's all coming from this place of you know, pumping out more adrenaline, more divisiveness. And you know, when I think about it, when I think about people who vote in these far right you know leaders, male leaders, who are going to try and control them, it sends my brain into a bit of a state of confusion if I'm being honest, but then I just need to get grounded and come back to myself.
Speaker 2:The other thing that's bothering me is this idea of, like the key words you know, authentic empowerment, words that are so deeply important, are being disrespected and they're becoming buzzwords. And as a woman you know, as women who hold space for other women, you know power and empowerment is essential work and it needs to be treated with respect. It's not a buzzword. It goes deep, deep, deep, deep, and it goes all the way back to our value, to visibility, into our voices.
Speaker 2:So I really want to say to anyone who's considering doing this to just stop and think about what they're doing and the impact that they're having, because there's a deep discernment in empowerment. You know, when we get into who we are as a woman and we connect to our true self, we find discernment and we start to make better decisions and we start to align ourselves with higher level people, people who are, you know, on a big journey just like we are, and we need that. As women, we need to come together, not to fight against each other. And yeah, I just want to say that really, I feel like there's so many women seeking and searching and they're going to, you know, women's circles and they're reading books and I support that and I don't think we should be discrediting feminine empowerment in any way, shape or form. Let women find their way and I feel like, more now than ever before, we need to change the story and we need to support each other and Lisa, please help me out here you say it, sister.
Speaker 1:I felt that, yeah, I'll help you out with pleasure, yeah, give me a good soapbox and I'm there. But, honestly, I've been working with the words authenticity and empowerment for years and I think the reason why a lot of people have started to reject those words or minimize them is because we're not seeing that much change. So they're like, oh, that it's just all a bit watered down, but no, just listen to the words. It's authentic, it is empowered. There's nothing more powerful than that. And so, yeah, I've been doing a lot of reading, I've been looking, listening, observing, observing what's going on, and the point that I want to make is that we already have power within us, and it's society, it's other people, it's expectations that seek to take away that power and, honestly, it's been happening for centuries. You know, I've never, well, I don't know a world where women haven't been able to live within their true power, and so we are disempowered. So the opposite to that is clearly to be empowered. So what is wrong with that word? And you know, to reclaim your own power is definitely a very personal journey and it's, you know, you might go on an empowerment course or you might come to us to help you with some of that standing in your own power kind of work. It is a personal journey, but you do need other women or other role models who have already done it or to help guide you, whether it's through a visualization or a meditation or some chanting or getting some axes into the woods and letting out that rage.
Speaker 1:However it comes out, we need people to embrace the word empowerment so that we can really have our boundaries, know what our values are, that we can live authentically, which is just, you know, to be able to live in a way that your thoughts, your feelings reflect your actions, your feelings reflect your actions. And let's face it, when we are controlled, when we live in fear, when we are scared of judgment, we're not being authentic. We have to hide part of ourselves, and so authenticity and empowerment they're kind of the same thing. You can't have one without the other. So that's where I'm at with it. That's my soapbox moment, um, and so you know, I want every marginalized community out there to to be able to live authentically and to live within their own power.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting though, because, whether it's determining a word like feminism, or authenticity, or empowerment, sometimes we need to go back to the basics to say look, this is what this word actually means. So I did want to just say what feminist, what feminism looks like, and really it's an advocate of women's rights on the basis of equality of the sexes, a person who supports feminism. And there are millions of types of different women who consider themselves feminists. They come from different backgrounds, different ethnic groups that came from different financial demographics, speak different languages, have different religions, and so obviously we're not always going to have the same agenda, because we're coming from different positions, different life experiences, and that's obviously where intersectionality comes in.
Speaker 1:But the basic premise is that we want equality, we want to be treated as human beings, not to be controlled or have power over us, and and so this, this socio-political movement um, as soon as we start fracturing off, then you see that it's pushing different agendas, and I want to get right back to the core that feminism literally is about equality. Nothing more, nothing less. What's your take on feminism?
Speaker 2:well, I female, so I've always been a feminist. Of course, I have my T-shirt on today, as you can see.
Speaker 1:Love it.
Speaker 2:I've got my suffragette necklace on. You know that I bought many, many years ago when I left my old corporate job. This was one of the necklaces that were worn, which I'm very proud to wear today. I've always been passionate about women and I've always surrounded myself with women. I've always done women's work one way or another. I've hung out with femme men. My husband is a feminist, my dad is a feminist.
Speaker 2:When I grew up, my mum and dad shared the housework, shared the cooking. He was very present in my life, in fact, from probably about the age of seven. I remember him more than my mum, um, you know. So there was obviously a switch there somehow, uh, when my mum, you know, was working full-time. So he was really, really, really, and he's a big-hearted man as my dad. So he would do anything for me and you know, he told me when I was born that he made a promise. I'm gonna cry, um. He said he made me a promise that he would always be there for me. And you know, he told me when I was born that he made a promise. I'm gonna cry, um. He said he made me a promise that he would always be there for me and he has fulfilled that promise and I am so indebted to him because he taught me so much, without me even realizing, um, how much he's actually taught me about relationships.
Speaker 2:And when I see my husband, there's such different people but there's a, there is a similar trait that runs throughout them both. And my husband does all the cooking. He's very, he loves doing the shopping, the food, which I hate doing, um, and he's, you know, we share the housework and different things and, and you know, we share so many of the roles and I feel like that was my dad's route, that kind of taught me that. So I've been very lucky by the men that have been around me to be able to know a man who I can trust and be with from like different standpoints in my life, and I've always sought those men out, I think, and if they haven't fit in that place, and I've been very suspicious and nervous around them, I've encountered toxic men, toxic women, with, you know, masculine traits and it's always been deeply upsetting for me actually, and there's been a big response to that. You know, both in my body, from a physical dimension of this really doesn't feel right, and feeling very unsafe, um, yeah, I feel like femininity is my true nature. I own it now.
Speaker 2:Um, I look at, you know, some of the greats, like the Emmeline Pankhurst and the Gloria Stainham, and then at Pamela Anderson today. You know, when I look at her story and how, how objectified she was I think she was the most objectified woman in the world and, to be fair, I don't think anyone else has come close to her and her impact. But when you look at her and when you hear her story and you, um, you know, you really, really listen to what she's got to say. She is the most amazing woman who has been so badly used, um, you know, and I'm gonna say, by patriarchy, by toxic, um, masculine women wanted to be like her as well, so it kind of wanted a hater, but we also wanted to be like her.
Speaker 2:We wanted to be like her and I mean she's a little bit older than me. But you know, I look at her now. She's got no makeup. She's on the west end, she's doing all this work around nature. She's always been a, you know, a big supporter of um nature and heavily involved and I just think what a woman, what an absolute beautiful woman. I get her.
Speaker 1:You know she sends like a little newsletter out and I read that and it's always nature-based, it's always soulful and yeah, all people ever want to talk about is the fact that she doesn't wear makeup, and it infuriates me because it's still the patriarchal glare of why isn't she? And like it's got nothing to do with it.
Speaker 2:She just shows up and her work, like you say, is far more important and she's making a statement and I feel like, whether the people go in through the the suffragette necklace or the feminist t-shirt or the lipstick, I've got my leather trousers on today, which is my kind of like tough girl that comes out, but I love a pair of I've always loved leather trousers, so I will wear them. You know, I'll probably be still wearing them when I'm in, you know, on my little Zimmer, um, to be honest, because why not? But you know, I think I think we can get really stuck on um the image of things. But if it opens up a conversation, then I'm all right with that and I feel like, you know, as such a beautiful woman, her not wearing makeup it gets people talking and she's so much more. She's so much more than excuse me, I need to.
Speaker 1:I need to drink you know, I think what my issue is is she hasn't been wearing makeup for about eight, nine, ten years now and still it's the the first topic that people open with. It's like get over it, let's talk about the other stuff. Um, but you're absolutely right. If it starts the conversation, fine, but it is just at such low level and it shows us where we still are in society.
Speaker 2:It's a true reflection and it shows how much work we have to do. Um, you know, the nfl chris loo, corrupt magna movement piece that went viral on tiktok, that was just such a powerful, so he was so embodied, he was so powerful, um, you know, and yet kind of graceful big guy like that. I think that's why it stood out so much like a big, powerful, nfl fit, strong bloke. You know he's there and he's standing up for something and he knows he's going to get arrested and he kind of goes into it quite peacefully and how many men are on him, you know, and I just was like I've got goosebumps as I'm talking about it. I was like for me he's a feminist and I know he's talking about all sorts of issues, um, that are going on in America right now. But it just was like, yes, that's what I think women and men need to see, more of these strong men who say this does not stand for me and I will, I'm prepared to get arrested for it. Um, you know, mind-blowing. It gave me so much hope seeing that moment and for me that is part of the feminist movement and I do feel, as I've thought about it, that the feminist movement is so connected into civil rights, because I was thinking about Rosa Parks.
Speaker 2:You know um saying she wouldn't sit in a certain part of the bus and what that did globally. You know one woman saying no, she changed the face of everything, I think, in terms of you know the changes that then followed from that one stand. You know one small woman. She probably didn't think anything. She don't think she would have even thought what could have possibly happened next. And I feel like there's such an integration between the two, as I'm thinking about it, that you know, yes, we're feminists, we're here for women, but I think, often as well, we're called into that heart space and we just see something that is not right and we're prepared to when, we're prepared to stand up and say I know I won't do that, that's not right.
Speaker 1:Malala is one of my um role models for that um, and she absolutely demonstrates feminine energy. Um, and all she wanted to do was get an education and for her um sisters and the other girls in her community to get an education and was shot for it and look what change that created. So we, you know, and back to the suffragettes you know they were willing to die for it. And being there, you know, running onto was it Ascot or whichever, or the Grand National, and dying there in front of the king by the king's horse, those courageous acts. And I think because especially women are not seen to be troublemakers, they have no idea that just taking one step forward or taking a seat can be so powerful. So yeah, in terms of myself and my whole journey, I think I have never really felt feminine, but I've not felt masculine either. And I did say to my daughters had non-binary been a thing? When I was a teenager I may well have thought am I non-binary? Now I know I'm a woman and I just class myself as a woman. I am Lucy, that is who I am, ask myself as a woman. I am Lucy, that is who I am.
Speaker 1:Um, and growing up I had a very matriarchal um family, in the sense that my granddad's died early. So my grandmother was the head of that. She was the glue that held us all together, and it was her, you know very strong sisters, my mum's sisters, who they would gather and bring everybody together, um. And then I had my stepdad who, well, he never saw me as a little girl. He just encouraged me to go and get an education, to move away, to travel to um. He took me around his factory to go and have a look. There was none of that gender stuff going on. He would question me, challenge me, we would have debates, so it never even occurred to me that there was anything that I couldn't do. Um. So I took that energy into my adult world, um. And so feminism for me is just about any human just being able to live as they choose to live, as long as they're not harming anyone. It's not an issue.
Speaker 1:And throughout my life I've tried so many different versions of myself. That's just part of human development, isn't it? And yes, I've been the rocker, I've been the raver, I've been the mother, I've been the outspoken rebel, I've been the good girl. You know, I've covered off all of the different stereotypes and none of them made me feel more male or female. It just was me trying to find myself.
Speaker 1:And even though I know that I am a woman living in the UK, I'm a white woman with an education, etc. I have privilege, with an education, etc. I have privilege. And even though I have legally all the rights, I still faced a very unequal world. And you know, when I think about women of colour or women with a non-British sounding name, gay women or women that go to certain churches or in part of different religions, women with disabilities, even I have no idea what it's like for them, but I will stand by them and do what I can to listen, to understand their perspective Because, again, they have all the same legal rights. You know that's something that feminists did, but their world is much more unequal than mine. So, even when, with my own privilege, I've been criticized, I've been attacked, belittled, judged for being the version of me and that doesn't fit somebody else's view of what maybe a woman should be doing. And so, although I've never felt like a typical female, I know that I am judged because I was born this way yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2:You know what I was. I grew up on a council estate and, um, mum and dad didn't have much money and, um, what they did have was a very strong work ethic and they worked really hard and they were very good at saving money, you know, which gave me a bit of an out and I knew I had to get out of the environment that I was in and I always knew that I didn't belong there. It was like a really strong sense I had from being tiny, um, and my name was different because my dad's from Barcelona, so you know the head ass is. Nobody could say that where I was from. It was white, poor, um, old mining town. You know it was really not a good area. It was a very hard area, you know, and some of the stories I would hear, even from being a child of, you know it was really not a good area. It was a very hard area.
Speaker 2:You know, and some of the stories I would hear, even from being a child of, you know, men beating up women and that was part of the culture around me. You know they went to the pub, um, and drank too much and then they'd go home and be up there, wife, girlfriend or whatever and that I heard those stories as a little kid and I remember thinking, oh my god, this is. You know, I like it was terrifying actually, and I always felt scared where I lived, um, but nobody could say my name, and so everywhere I went, you know, at school they'd go Karen, and then there would be a pause and I put my hand up, you know, but that's me. So I had to sort of like almost front it out a little bit, and I think that was one of my saving graces, that I just thought, okay, I don't fit in here. Um, it's always going to be a struggle, I will get out, but I just learned to embrace it and learn to embrace parts of myself that actually were not, because I didn't look like the other kids, you know. I mean, I'm my hair's dyed now, but I had jet black hair. I looked very different to everybody else. I stood out and, you know, now it feels like so silly. Do you know what I mean? It wouldn't.
Speaker 2:I don't think it would be a big deal these days, because I feel like, you know, our country's changed a lot and there's a lot more ethnic um cultures coming in, so it now it seems crazy that we're having this conversation, but back then you know what that's, it was extreme. And you know, when I first my first job, my boss said to me we're going to change your name what? He dropped the hair ass out of my name and called me Karen Kelly. And then it's like newspaper articles. You know that I joined the company as Karen Kelly and I was like that's not my name, this is my name, you know, just because it was complicated, and it's not that complicated now, is it really? Let's face it, there's a lot more complicated names. So it's kind of crazy to have this conversation, but that was then. So things have moved forward.
Speaker 1:Let's just say I just say, there you go, a man telling you what you're, you will be called. I mean how?
Speaker 2:disempowering is that? Yeah, I mean, I had friends as well who had to go to elocution lessons because they didn't like their accent, you know, because they sounded too northern or whatever it was, and so, again, we're talking about a space in time and I feel like things have moved forward in some ways along the slides. It seems like a ridiculous conversation to have, but that was my life and that's what I grew up with, is what I'm trying to say, and we've all got experiences of things. Um, I wanted to sort of read this out. This is definitely a feminist quote and this is by a French philosopher and feminist activist. I just saw it. It popped up and I don't know what it was, but something made me stop. She's called Simone de Beauvoir. If the feminine issue is so absurd, it's because the male arrogance made it a discussion, and then the subheader was the bit that sort of made me sort of stop. When equality becomes a conversation instead of a given, the system is the problem and I was like that feels like a dated quote to me.
Speaker 2:When I read it I thought there's something dated here, and I don't know if it is dated. But that bit underneath was like yeah, this is what we're talking about here. This is a system, systematic, can't speak today. Systematic issue and this idea of yes, it is the system that is broken. It's not women, it's a system, and it's also, you know, not men, because men are part of the system, just like we're part of the system.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, it's just becoming so polarized that we have to take a position and stance and I feel, like you know, we're talking about our views. We're talking about speaking up for people who are too scared to do it, because I know there's a lot of women out there that I that don't have, that haven't been cultivating this stuff for a long time, that perhaps they're not in a situation where they can talk about it, where they don't have supportive people around them. They've got people who want them to conform and behave and get back in the boxes that they've been placed in. We've both broken out of our boxes and there's no way we're going back in those boxes. So we're here as a I suppose, a pillar of light, but there are many women that don't feel like they can, and also, I would imagine, there's plenty of men who also don't feel like they can, and I feel like for us it's about like talking up, lobbying, marching, researching is the basic thing we can all be doing is to research. Go back in history, because history is a great informer. Look at the modern faces, look at what's happening now. Talk to the women who are on board, have conversations with them and take, even if it's a baby step, just take a little action. I feel like this is so, so important, this space and time.
Speaker 2:And also, I always say the same thing, but you know, all feminists are not anti-men. I am certainly not anti-men. You're going to talk about this in a bit, so I won't go into too much. But you know what I am anti is the rules that keep women stuck, and often those rules are not openly discussed, and they're not openly discussed in an honest way either. Um, that's why we get people voting for um far right, because they think, oh, there's something in him.
Speaker 2:And this is what my psychologist told me, by the way. She said because we had this conversation and she's she always says to me if I get upset about somebody or something she'll say who does it remind you of? And we always go back because it always goes back to something, some experience in my life. I'm having a response to somebody from way way back because it's reminding me. So that person who's right in front of me is reminding me of someone else, and so as we talked about this, she was like that's why people are voting, that's why women are voting for Trump, because it reminds them somehow of a male in their family probably their father, you know and so they go towards it because it's familiar.
Speaker 2:So that's the sort of thing that I want to say, and I feel like, as women, it's really important that we are very clear about what is this reminding me of? Who is this reminding me of? Is this a positive force in my life? Is this going to really support, uphold and cherish and love me? And therefore, is this person the right person? Is this action the right action? And we start to get clear and that's where we get our power back. What about you, lucy?
Speaker 1:um, you made me think of, uh, something when, um, my eldest was probably still in, um, the infant school, so maybe she was about seven, maybe eight, and and I'd mentioned feminism, and she said I'm not a feminist. And I said, what do you mean? She said, well, I don't think girls are better than boys. And I'm like, where has she heard that from? And it made me realize that even at that young age, we're starting to get these polarized views of what it is to be a feminist. And I had to correct her. I said no, I said it's about equality, so that girls and boys have all of the same opportunities. And she went, oh, and it was that, you know that wake up call. But, um, and so now they're, thankfully, all of them proud feminists. But it was that questioning, and if I had not been there or answered that question for her, she may well have continued down that thinking that to be feminist was a bad thing.
Speaker 1:Now, I've shared with you before that I love the Guilty Feminist podcast and whenever they get a guest on the radio on the podcast, they always ask them to answer the question. I'm a feminist, but and it's to have that guilty bit, you know, because there are things in the patriarchy that actually are quite nice. They, you know, they make us feel a certain way, and one of them, you know, for me, my love language is acts of service and quality time. So if a well, if anybody, but in particular if a man opens a door for me, moves my seat, offers me a seat, I see that as an act of care and of course, you know, in a quality. No man should be doing that for me. No, it's not about that. It's about that, to me, is an act of service and an act of care, um, so you are allowed to like to be spoiled or to, um, have some romance, or to, you know, have somebody offered to carry some books or a heavy load for you. You know, if it's a struggle, you don't have to do it all by yourself, because that is what equality is. It's like I can do this, but let's, you know, join forces and, you know, take a little help now and then. So that's, you know, one of the things I just wanted to say, um, but I really do want to talk about this, um, man hating thing, um, because I've always been a feminist and I've never hated a man.
Speaker 1:There are certain men whose behaviours the behaviours I hate I don't hate them and a lot of women in particular who are speaking up or sharing stuff on social media, are being called misandrists, and misandry is something that I want to talk to right now, because there is no such thing as misandry. It's total and utter nonsense. You know, there may be some women who genuinely hate men, and it's usually due to some pain or trauma that she has experienced in her life, that she has experienced in her life, but it's the exception. It's also not her or us trying to take power away from men. It's just trying to get the same power that the men do actually have, and so we don't want men to suffer. We don't want them to be kicked out or not be able to access educational services. You know all the things that we've been struggling with for years. We don't want that for them. We just want to join them where they are, and so it's nothing to do with misandry, and so the reason why I want to just be really clear that misandry does not exist is because the oppressed cannot oppress the oppressors. So let's just you's just break that down. Women have got less rights. We can't walk down the streets on our own. We can't speak up when we have been assaulted because we are the oppressed. So the oppressed cannot oppress the people who are oppressing them. It no sense, it just doesn't happen in any society, whether it's racism, whether it's a religion. It just doesn't happen. So here's some examples, and I just want to read a few of them, just so we can really label this.
Speaker 1:If we were living in a misandrist world, if misandry really did exist, you would be able to name something from this list A country where teenage and unmarried fathers were sent away to asylums and institutions to live there, to look after their babies or even have their babies removed from them.
Speaker 1:You would see a country, a regime where the majority of murders were of men, committed by women, or where a female-led major world religion suggested or described that men were inferior, or where males must get permission or supervision of females to travel, to marry, to seek health care, to even get a driving license, or where men are imprisoned just for showing their skin, or where women kill men for having sex before marriage, or where men are killed, imprisoned or punished for impregnating a woman outside of marriage, or where a man never has been in power in a government in their whole history, or where men do not have the right to even vote. Can you think of a country like that in any of our lifetimes? Because the opposite is obviously true. That is why we say we live in a misogynistic world, because those rights aren't given to women around the world.
Speaker 1:Um, misandry does not exist because it is women worldwide who are oppressed. They are not the oppressors. And so is it possible for women to hate men? Of course, just like women can hate women, but honestly, it is the norm for women to hate on women more than women hating on men, and I know that's something that you wanted to talk to. The women hating on women piece.
Speaker 2:There's another soapbox for me oh, my god, you know what? I never even heard of the word misandry. So when you put, when you talked to me about it, I was like what does it mean? Um, so that shows you how, how disconnected I am from that.
Speaker 2:Um, I do understand why some women would hate men. I absolutely understand that and I can honestly say that I have done. I have hated men at points in my life where I've had a huge trauma happened to me. Um, I've just just been like I don't think I'll be able to be around men, like I literally was so traumatized. Now my dad and my husband were around me and I think they were definitely part of my healing because, you know, I and my daughter as well I almost was like what am I going to do? Go and and live on a commune or we're close up into the hills and never be seen. Part of me wanted to go do that, to be honest. But then COVID was my. I had that during COVID which actually helped me to heal. So it was a real blessing for me because I had the space.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, so I do understand that and I do want to say like it's okay to hate somebody who hurts you, because that is part of your healing journey to go through the cycles of that and actually to allow yourself to hate something and someone, and some action has been taken to you, but you don't want to stay there and you don't want to live in that space because that's going to, it's going to make your life awful and I feel like that. We all have a responsibility to ourselves to heal, you know, to heal our pain, to heal the traumas that we've experienced in our lifetime, big, small, whatever. But we owe that to ourselves because we want to come back to our hearts and come back to our um, true self, because by holding on to hatred, we're actually poisoning ourselves. It's like do you want to drink that cup of poison and drink it today? Would you want to put it?
Speaker 1:I just want to just add in there that it isn't a natural state for anybody, but especially women, who you know that if you follow. Like the Bible it says that Eve was made of Adam, but the reality is that women have the ability to create, give birth to men. So if it was our natural state to hate men, then we would reject our sons even at birth. It's just not within us, us. It is always that healing journey because something's happened to us absolutely and we are the healers.
Speaker 2:If you think about it, you know we really, really are and we are. We are coming from a very, very different place and the way that we respond to life is very different. And I watched that in my husband, even though he's a feminist, you know, like the things that I would think about, he just doesn't, it's not in his brain, he just he's like why are you worried about that? That's not like worry about it if it happens. And I'm like you don't understand and we are so different in that way thank god, because otherwise it'd be a nightmare because you know he balances me out in different ways and I balance him out in different ways. So somehow this journey of you know relationships needs masculine and feminine and even if that is within yourself, we know that and we need to make harmony, we need to make peace with um.
Speaker 2:I think forgiveness is a big word. If you really really someone's really hurt you, to forgive them is the goal. It's going to take a long time. It's taken me a long time to forgive um. I'm further there now, but I still have days where I get really angry again, where I'll go. I hate that guy for what he did to me. I hate him. And then I'm like, hold on a minute, don't drink the poison, and I have to do my own inner work.
Speaker 1:And remember, sometimes it's hating the behavior, not the person, and I think that's the bit for me when I know that I've done the healing.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean honestly, I I do hold, you know, I do hold this, it the action. Yes, um, as I said, I'm further along. It's been eight years now but I still have a strong dislike towards this person. But then I have to do the work to get it out of my system, um, and then I'm okay for a bit and then something will kind of like hook me again and I'll go back into it and I'm like, oh, and it's a process. And it'm like, oh, and it's a process, and it's a process, and it's a process, and I'm pretty sure there'll be a day when that won't be there. And I'm so far along on my journey. I just want to give women you listen to this you go, oh, my god, I can't consider that. That could be an option that I could, um, you know, totally forgive that person for what they did to me. You don't need to, you just need to put the cup of poison down and take care of your own needs and yourself.
Speaker 1:Um, that's the journey, is what I would say, you know and also just to say that is, although there there's a lot of men who hurt women, um, it's again it. I don't want to do the phrase. It's not not all men, but you have a father, you have a husband, I have a brother. You know, we have lots of good men in our lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and as I've done my healing journey, all these amazing men have arrived and I've chosen to work with them and I've chosen to let them into my world and I've chosen to spend time with them. So the level of healing is absolutely humongous for me, because there's a point when I was thinking you know, I've never heard the word misandry, but you know, I was thinking, my god, I'm never going to be able to, you know, be in a room again with a man I don't know and I don't trust. Like even then I'm questioning. So it's just really really big steps forward. However, I do not believe that a world where we fight against opposing sex on any way should perform is in any way good for any of us no, and especially when it's women fighting women.
Speaker 1:So you know this. Um, the sister wound you opened with. Yeah, let's just touch base on that for a minute. Tell me about your either your thoughts or your experiences of the sister wound.
Speaker 2:I think I've been quite lucky in some ways in that I just moved more towards women. I've done it on my life, so that that has been something that. But I did encounter a lot of toxic women and, yes, the scars have been there within me for sure, um, but I've had to do the healing work. I've been healing some of it for a long time because I, you know, I was really badly bullied when I went to high school by two girls who were like older than me, and it went on for like three years. So it's really intense and I was still working.
Speaker 2:I still been working on that last year because I get a little bit of a fragment will come back, and then I've got to go oh, who's this? And then who's it reminding me of? Ok, I'm back in school, right, ok, what else do I need to do on this experience to let go of some more pieces? Because I feel like when we're younger and we have negative relationships with women, they you know it does create something inside us. It's like can I trust you? Are you really on my side or are you going to do something to sort of um, attack me later? Because I feel like there can be this you know, when I look at my daughter and I look at, she's very like, my take on this and this is like going back into the early years is that girls are more psychological and boys are much more like, like physical, and there's these two different camps.
Speaker 2:So I think when girls are like trying to work it all out, who are the friends, who are not the friends, and they're trying to sort of place themselves within the structure, um, they are psychologically trying to work through things and then, therefore, the response to that can be quite psychological. Um, and that's what I see with my daughter and her, her group of friends, and that was definitely my experience as well. I'm not saying it's always like that, um, but when I had physical stuff done to me by, you know, the girls at my school, like you know, it went into the physical domain, which is terrifying, really, really terrifying.
Speaker 1:So I had to.
Speaker 2:That was like an early experience for me. And then most of the women I've worked with I used to always have like one woman who would try and bully me in the workplace. That was always the pattern for me. But then I'd have other women who would really support me and like actually almost like, get on board with me and support me through it. Um, so that happened to me all the way up till I was about 32. So I had these experiences. So I had this like women are amazing. Women support you and hold you. And then there are the occasional ones that come in that you know will try to take you down. So I had both.
Speaker 2:And then as soon as I started standing up for myself and I found my voice and I decided that just wasn't going to put up with it anymore, that stopped and I had no more experiences of it. It was like literally like amazing. When I got back into my power, like I'm not going to put up with that sort of behavior and I'm going to call it out, they disappeared. It just stopped happening. Um, so there's that. So what my learning of it is we have to heal all parts of ourselves, all experiences that we've had with men, with women I'm going to call it the toxic masculine behaviors. Um, that includes a sister wound, because if we don't, we're going to be like we're not going to know who to trust. We're going to be very suspicious.
Speaker 1:Um, we're going to be drinking that poison and it it will be impossible to build truly empowered relationships with other women I agree with everything you you said, but I will say that there, um, in my experience, the sister wound comes up because of the, the patriarchy where we've all been told to compete with each other, to, um, look out, you know, to see who's going to stab you in the back. But it comes out in a very feminine, toxic way in terms of the gossiping, the judgment, the criticism, the belittling, all of those passive, aggressive and, like you say, psychological behaviors. Um, so it's still born from a place of the patriarchy, but it presents in, you said, toxic masculinity but, um, you know, it's toxic feminine energy, uh, or behaviors that you see, and, um, and I've often been on the receipt of toxic femininity in the sense that, um, people wouldn't trust me, you know, because I was pretty authentic and I was bold and I was out there, living, you know, and speaking up and not shying away or hiding, and that made other women, I guess, feel insecure, maybe, and so they would try and drag me down or start rumours about me which were never true. But you know, once you've got a myth and legend about you, it's really hard to turn that around, which is why I've just always said I'm just going to walk my own path and I'm going to do things my way, because I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't. And typical Barbie movie, you know dialogue. Whatever I do, I'm going to have judgment.
Speaker 1:And part of the healing then of the sister wound is to realize that actually we've just been all conditioned to think that. And you know, it's even like when, when I read news stories when I was younger about some politician having an affair, it was always the woman, the mistress, who was to blame. Or if a teenage girl got pregnant at school, it was her fault and she was a loose girl not even questioning well who impregnated her. Yeah, is he gonna step up? So it's so ingrained under the patriarchy but can't help. But um, turn on each other. And so my quest now is I am the woman's biggest supporter. I believe her first. I look for supporting her, whether it's a post or a social media image, or if somebody's gossiping about her within friendship, I literally don't get involved. I either, you know, I'll click all the likes and whatever to promote the women doing the good work and I will remove myself from any of the the toxic femininity absolutely, and it's like that thing, isn't it?
Speaker 2:we were talking about this the other day with Brené Brown. I think it's Brené Brown. I couldn't find the source, but oh yes, it was Brené Brown, by the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was it.
Speaker 2:You found the source. Great, yeah, you know. I can't remember which book one of her amazing books but it was her first book. I only know it because I read it rising strong, but you know anyway, I will get the book.
Speaker 1:I've got them all up there anyway, so I'll get the quotes and I'll put it on the socials yeah, and she's talking about.
Speaker 2:You know, you've got people who, like you know, live out in the world and and I always see it like like I'm in the Colosseum in Rome and you know you've got the gladiators coming out onto the you know, onto the stage and they're there and they're, you know, they're there for the fight ultimately. And then you've got the people in the stands that are like throwing stones and throwing like comments and criticisms. And it's like that idea of like you're either out in the world and you're either playing into the main stage or you're Dare greatly that was the book it's just come to me or you're, you know you're in, you're in the stands and you're, you're watching, you're observing and you're just throwing criticism, comments and judgments. And and I kind of grew up a little bit like that. It was a little bit like that in our house, because we'd put the tv on and then the mum and dad would just be like slating people on the tv. That's kind of what they're more my mum than my dad, to be honest.
Speaker 2:Like oh, she should be wearing that, that's not her, you know it was literally like and I, as I got older, I'd say to stop it, stop doing that. It's so, it's making me feel deeply uncomfortable, but stop stop doing it. And she'd obviously been brought up in that way where that's what you know people did and that's why people sit reading the newspapers, you know, and then they're like it and I'm like I've never been that person, thank god, because I always it. I just knew it made me feel icky on the inside, um, so I've always tried to not be that person and there's been times where I have been, but I've literally got out of that quite quickly because I've just thought what am I serving here?
Speaker 2:I do feel like I'm here to make the world a little bit better, um, to uphold people, not break them down, shut them down. So I think it's that thing, isn't it? We are, we are we in the centre? Are we living our lives? Are we creating things? Or are we, you know, standing back, judging, criticising, you know critiquing to a point where it's negative, and knowing where you stand and knowing where you want to be as well?
Speaker 1:well, I had a memory that came up um just recently, um, because I I think everybody seen um the uh, the image of serena williams dancing at the the super bowl, and it was just amazing.
Speaker 1:And then, um, I had this memory of my I think it was my mum and my dad criticizing it was either her or Venus um playing tennis, and how they grunted and they were, like, you know, really getting um angry if a point went against them, and it just made me realize, you know, I was like she's amazing or you know, they amazing players, and I just was looking at them as sports people, but they were criticising them because it wasn't very ladylike and I think they both had this criticism and they're black, of course, which doesn't help.
Speaker 1:But then, just this weekend, I put some videos that normally I would keep on TikTok, tiktok, which none of my family follow me on there and I put them onto Instagram because they were like really cute actually, and my mum commented on both of them one of them, well, she doesn't get that from me, and the other one was like had you had some wine?
Speaker 1:And it was just those little digs, because I dare to show up and I dare to, you know be my full, authentic self, and I do find myself monitoring what I put on certain um social medias, depending on who I know is going to criticize me and unfortunately it is my mum, being um you know the blatantly belittling me because she doesn't know any better, and that is the sister wound, or even the daughter wound yeah, and I loved your videos and it was really nice, thank you and the thing to me is you look like you're having so much fun and I feel like if you're up there and you're doing it and you're enjoying it and you're getting something from it, you should literally go for it, and the people that want to criticize they'll eventually I mean, I know it's your mom, so she's not going anywhere, but do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:they'll just get the message eventually that you're not going to stop. You know, there was just something very, very powerful and just showing up and keeping showing up, but I loved them and I thought good for Lucy, like she is having a ball, and I love to see another woman having a ball it just makes me want to do it more and more.
Speaker 2:When somebody says, no, you can't, I'm like oh yes, I can that's empowerment, yeah, and I, I just think if you were doing it and you didn't feel right, you didn't want to do it, and then you were forcing yourself to do it, that's a whole different story. But that's not what I saw, that wasn't coming out of the screen to me anyway. Therefore, you know it's good for you, it's not good for them. That's kind of their problem, isn't it really? But I, I can also imagine that. You know, I mean, I've got some something similar that my mum said about me the other day I was working out and she said to my husband she said no. My husband said have you seen John Jane Fonda, not John Fonda, john Fonda is someone else, jane Fonda in there? And my mum went yeah, no, let me get this right. Yeah, my husband said have you seen Jane Fonda in there? And my mum said she wishes oh, another, another dig, another dig. And so I shouted I can hear you like that. And she said oh, no, I mean you're much more beautiful than Jane Fonda.
Speaker 2:But it was like I laughed because it was like I've so caught you out. Um, I didn't take it. I knew where she, I knew it wasn't like. You know, she didn't mean it like that. She was having a bit of a like sarky comment, but at the same time I was like I don't want to look like Joan Fonda, I want to look like me, yeah. And so it was like a bit of almost like a negative thing, but it became quite empowering for me because I just thought I'm just very grateful that I'm here doing exercise, to be honest, and that's because you've done your work yeah, it didn't.
Speaker 2:It didn't. I knew it was kind of more on her. You know it was more like that's your stuff. I don't need to take that in today and actually I'm kind of quite happy with myself. You know. It's just like I was there, you know I was like feeling good. I was like, yeah, fine, it's your stuff, not mine. Um, I think we've got to keep doing the things that make us feel good and if people have a problem with it, that's on them well, that sounds like a top tip to close this down with.
Speaker 1:Have you got um one defining top tip that you've got for um any woman or any man, even um showing up in their feminist energy?
Speaker 2:I think it's be careful about the company you keep and I used to say that a lot in when I used to do communications work as well. It's like be known for the company you keep. Basically, and if your company and your tribe and your groups, you feel good in those groups and you're getting supportive you know it's a two-way street, of course then you you're doing something great. And if you're not sure, I mean one of the things I would say is get a piece of paper, write your name in the center, draw a circle around you and write the names of the key people in your like inner circle on that circle around you and then instinctively look at their names and see what feeling you get on the inside, like what's your body telling you about each one of those people? And if you're getting something slightly negative towards that person or coming up from your body, you want to be checking out what that's about.
Speaker 2:I'm not. They might be really good people, it might not be the name, but there's something in you that's telling you something else and so you want to do that work and it could be that they remind you of somebody from your past. Like I said earlier on, that's a sign to say that there's some healing required, or it could just literally be that those people are not right for you anymore and there's a letting go process that's needed. So so that's a nice one to do, um, yeah, and if you want to go even further on the feminine domain, tune into the, put your hand on your womb space, do a little triangle goes on the womb here at the base, and you can just feel into that area and just see what, what feelings you're getting through, what intuitive information you're getting from the womb towards those people and always trust it is what I would say um, and see if there's any actions that you need to take there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, but you know my tip, um, I guess, is if you're you're starting this um feminist journey, or even if you're well into it. It's a good check-in. So it actually all starts with you. The power is already within you. So get to know you, and I often, often joke with my clients that people know more about their favourite pop stars or sports people than they do about themselves. So get to know your lightness, get to know your skills and your strengths, but equally, get to know your shadow and your darkness, the bits of you that make you cringe.
Speaker 1:Get to know your weaknesses, the things that you're not actually very good at. Find out what you really believe and maybe where some of those beliefs come from. Are they your beliefs, um? And if they are, you hold on to them, but have they been passed down to you and they're not serving you anymore? And because, once you know your light, your dark, your strengths, your weaknesses, your true beliefs, you get to live freely then, and so that is the first part of reclaiming your power, but it takes a journey to get there. So that's a really good way to start living the powerful, authentic way, because the feminist way is the human way, it's a call for equality for all, and we can all take our small steps every day to live our life in a more equal way so whatever you do, however you do it, um, you are still complete.
Speaker 1:You are still whole. Nothing changes within you until you go on that journey, but when you start acting on it, everything changes. So be that change that you want to see in the world. Start with you and start letting you be the role model of your own life, and you know what we would love to hear about, whether it's your um mini acts of feminism, your micro feminism, your acts of empowerment, or how you're standing in your own power, so you can let us know at our socials. You can just do hashtag Say it, sister. Or, if you want to do it more privately, email us at sayitsisterpodcast at gmailcom. And yeah, we'll be in touch. Thank you, see you next time. So thanks for listening and we can't wait to welcome you next time.
Speaker 2:Until then, use your voice journal, speak or sing out loud. However you do it. We hope you join us in saying it's a star.