Say it Sister...
Lucy and Karen, two 40-somethings, are always chatting about life, and all that it has to throw at them, and now want to share their raw, honest conversations with you. Their journey of self-discovery and healing is something many of us can relate to. We all possess a unique power within us, but life’s trials often knock us off course. They have the tools, the courage to speak up and simply say it as it is, so you might feel seen, and understood and gain practical tools and techniques for self-discovery and personal growth during the changes we experience.
Say it Sister...
The Feminist Journey: Overcoming Patriarchy and Finding Your Voice
Lucy and Karen explore the challenges faced by women in today's world and share acts of positivity to become better allies to ourselves and others in this second part of their International Women's Day series.
• Recent history of women's rights in the UK, including that women couldn't open bank accounts until 1975 and marital rape wasn't illegal until 1992
• Common misconceptions about feminism, emphasizing that feminists are not anti-men but seeking equality
• The impact of patriarchal systems on both women and men, and the need for men's healing circles
• Personal experiences of workplace sexism, including inappropriate comments about appearance rather than professional abilities
• Daily struggles with patriarchy, including street harassment, domestic labor imbalance, and raising daughters in a misogynistic world
• Finding empowerment through choosing oneself, asserting boundaries, and following intuition
• Practical tips for supporting women including reading women authors, following women's social media accounts, and listening to women's podcasts
• Reminder that feminist principles benefit everyone through equality
Join our private Facebook group to connect with us, share your experiences, or suggest topics for future episodes. The feminist way is the human way—it's a call for equality for all.
Hello and welcome to the Say it Sister podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm Lucy and I'm Karen, and we're thrilled to have you here. Our paths crossed years ago on a shared journey of self-discovery, and what we found was an unshakable bond and a mutual desire to help others heal and live their very best lives.
Speaker 1:For years, we've had open, honest and courageous conversations, discussions that challenged us, lifted us and sometimes even brought us to tears. We want to share those conversations with you. We believe that by letting you into our world, you might find the courage to use your voice and say what really needs to be said in your own life.
Speaker 2:Whether you're a woman seeking empowerment, a self-improvement enthusiast or someone who craves thought-provoking dialogue, join us, as we promise to bring you real, unfiltered conversations that encourage self-reflection and growth.
Speaker 1:So join us as we explore, question and grow together. It's time to say say it, sister, hey, hey, hey. Sisters, welcome back to part two of our International Women's Day series, and today you'll tune in, listen to us exploring our own challenges that we faced as a woman living in today's world. We will also share some of our acts of positivity, some of the things that we can do to be openly more feminist, more woman-minded, basically an ally to ourselves. Hope you enjoy.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about some of the common misconceptions in women's rights from our small little island that we live in. 1948, the NHS gave women free access to care. 1964, the Married Women's Property Act allowed women to keep half of any money given to them by their husbands. 1975, the year before I was born, the Sex Discrimination Act made it illegal to discriminate against women in work, education or training. It wasn't until 1975 that women could open their own bank accounts in their own name. So that's a major thing. And then, 1992, marital rape was made illegal. And that is in my lifetime, and it's not that, you know, it's really, really recent, and that is a shocker to me. So this is the landscape, this is, you know, the things that have been happening, I suppose, fairly recently, and I think I'm guessing that some people will be quite surprised when they hear that, because it's not something we talk about every day.
Speaker 1:We do need to be aware of how recent we're talking in terms of the landscape of women's lives, and just remember, when our mothers were born, they were not allowed to get contraception, they were not allowed to have an abortion, and that changed in their lifetime, and it's something that we, again, we need to appreciate, because this is not that far removed.
Speaker 2:And I think you know where I get to sometimes is don't take everything as a given, you know. Fight for the things that you believe in. Stand up for what you care about. A big point for me is that feminists are not anti-men, and I really, really want to ram that home, because it's really important that we stand with our brothers as well. You know, it's not about, it's not about overcoming men, it's not about ignoring men, it's not about putting men down. I feel like it's just understanding that. You know, we're all affected by patriarchal societies and behaviors. Now, if somebody is doing something that's in alignment with the patriarchal standards, then they need to be called out for sure. But you know, for me it's really about finding equality in our rules and our systems, where we are seen as equal, you know, not secondary or inferior, because of our sex.
Speaker 1:I think it's also when you hear that rhetoric that men say they're taking away our rights. So we're like, literally, we're literally not. We're asking for equal rights. We're not trying to take anything away from you, we're just trying to get to the same position you're in and what we might be trying to do is to stop some of the behaviors that you're doing that are harmful.
Speaker 1:Um, and let's face it, like you say, the patriarchy harms men. You know the a lot of the reason why men are struggling. It's because of the patriarchy that that we all exist within, within, and we've all got this internalized misogyny. We can't help it. It has been rammed into us from the day we were born. About, you know, girls wear pink and boys wear blue, or, um, boys are given guns and girls are given dolls and all of this stuff, um, every single message we have throughout our whole life. It is within us. It is within the stories, in the songs, in the books that we read our role whole life. It is within us. It is within the stories, in the songs, in the books that we read our role models that we see, and so it, it harms all of us and so and I just want to be clear here.
Speaker 1:It's not that I don't want to support men. It's just that my focus is on women, because I have to be really clear about where I put my energy and what I want to do is to encourage men to help solve their own problems. So if men are struggling if men are, you know, really, you know dying by suicide what can men do to help support the men? Why does it need to be a woman that has to come up with a solution? So my focus is absolutely on how can I support and empower and encourage women um, like there should be some men's circles.
Speaker 2:That are, but the men's circles really should be around, you know, healing and hope and what does you know balance look like? Like I would love to see that like, why is there not? I mean, there may be, maybe we, just it's not our world, is it? Um, but one way, at the center of that, it's about hearts and healing, um, and positivity, and, you know, moving things forward, because I, for me, I feel like when I think about, you know, I don't know, I just go into a place when I see what's going on through the internet, you know, of the things that are being, are being put out there by people like Andrew Tate. It is horrific and it's horrifying to me, you know, and it's like men go to the pub and they, you know, have their conversations, you know, and do that. What do they really talk about? I don't know. There's just it makes me nervous, but I would love the idea of a men's circle. That is really.
Speaker 1:Just to say there is hope because even in my local town on a Monday at seven o'clock a group of men meet at a specific place and they just go for a walk. It's called Walk and Talk Men's Health or something like that, and it's a movement that is up and down the country. So they're still active, they're still doing something in a purposeful masculine way, but as they're doing it they are just connecting. And my um, a lot of my family members are fishers and it's predominantly a male sport and when they get together they do they, they open up their sandwich boxes and they just talk. So they do exist. But I think the default in the masculine world is we've got to go to the rugby, we've got to go to the pub or to the football and chant and nobody's actually talking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. I love that More fishing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:More Bob Markle please. And I interrupted, so sorry about that and I interrupted.
Speaker 1:So sorry about that.
Speaker 1:Well, I was just going to um move on to something that occurred to me when I was a teenage girl, that being saying that I was a feminist, um, because I remember saying I'm a feminist and, um, people around me saying, oh, you don't want to be one of those, and it was a real derogatory term, um, and I was told that you know, all the feminists were man-haters, they were wearing dungarees, they were all lesbians, all too butch for their own good, and yeah.
Speaker 1:So I kept quiet about it, even though I was a feminist and I was reading feminine literature and I was trying to understand everything, I never came out with those words, and it's only probably been in the last maybe 15 years that I've owned that phrase, that I am a feminist. But I also see that it's the same that's now starting to happen again. So it's like, 40 years later, as, as women, the feminist movement starts making good ground, then everything comes out to attack them again, and being a feminist, especially for young women, it's dangerous both socially, economically and physically. Um, so I just wondered have you faced? Well, of course you have, but what are some of those key challenges you faced?
Speaker 2:well, first and foremost, I watched Wicked at the weekend with my, with my daughter, and it is, isn't it? Wonderful, fantastic story. I've seen it on their stage and the West End, but I haven't hadn't seen the movie and I was like it's such a positive story for women, but it's also very educational in terms of their own enemy. That always needs to be a villain, and that's how you know people win seats. Basically, so if you can get you know, you, you can have an enemy there. It's the animals to start off and then it becomes, you know, it becomes the wicked witch, it becomes the wicked witch and it's ultimately not the truth and I think it's that for me that I take away. I go.
Speaker 2:We really need to watch out the stories that were being fed to discern what is really happening. So that comes up for me. You know, when I think about dungaree, wearing lesbians, I'm like this is just ridiculous. Um, I love, I have dungarees, I wear dungarees. Um, I have no problem with the dungaree thing, but it's more like there has to be something that we, that is held up, that might scare people off or put them off, you know, focus them in a different area, and I don't like that. So I just wanted to call that out, um. But yes, of course, um, I think I'm going to go back to my first ever sort of proper job, when I left university and I went to work for a PR company and I had a group of motor dealerships that I was doing the public relations for.
Speaker 2:So I would go in my little car and I'd go and see all these. I'd go to these motor dealerships and I'd see all these. They're very archetypal, sort of like heads of the dealerships. You know each one and I'd go in and I'd find out what had been happening and I'd have my notepad and I'd take my notes and I was very, very professional. But they'd always be like you look like you should be dating a footballer. I'd get that comment. I cannot tell you how many times I would go in there. Oh, here's the glamour. You know that kind of comment and I was almost. I was so embarrassed because I just thought is that all you can see, see?
Speaker 1:yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm here my first job. I'm 21. I'm really working really hard to sort of prove myself. You know, I'm full-on trouser, suits, um, and all you can see is I look like I should be dating a footballer.
Speaker 1:It was just like oh my god, you know it's putting you right back in your place.
Speaker 2:Woman and it was what they were thinking. They were just saying, I thought, which was probably in their minds a compliment. Do you know what I mean? Because they thought I was attractive, so they were giving me a compliment, but for me it was like I don't really want that sort of comment. I want talk to me about the brilliant work I'm doing. You know, tell me that something like wow, since you've come on board, you know, we've seen a huge difference and people coming through the doors and they've read something in the papers. I mean, we're going back a long time now, um, you know, and and talk to me about that, because that's the thing that I'm here to do. I'm not here to look pretty or bring some, you know, color into your office. That's not what I'm here to do. So that was, that was something.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing was really, I used to get a lot of comments about my breasts and the comments around. You know, oh, you could do page three. Um, I was once approached by an agent, you know, at dinner that said you know, you'd be great on page three and I could represent you, and my comment told you this story, but my comment was no, thank you, I'm actually, I was at uni at the time I'm at university and I'm, you know, I'm working really hard to, you know, create a profession for myself where it's not about my. You, I'm actually, I was at uni at the time I'm at university and I'm, you know, I'm working really hard to, you know, create a profession for myself where it's not about my. You know, I didn't actually go into that level of detail, but I did say I'm at university and I'm working hard, you know, to create a profession. That was my comment and I just remember feeling cringe on the inside.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like I think sometimes people say these things, they think they're, they're giving you a compliment, but it but something very different is happening on the inside and it's this awareness of these comments that can make you feel very small, very intimidated, and it's almost anti what you're going for at that point in your life where you're like, don't see me that way, because I've had that. You know, I've had that for 19, 20 years. See me for a professional. You know, if it was a man coming in, you know, into that role or into that, they wouldn't be talking about things like that you know we're talking about the size of his crotch, would they?
Speaker 2:let's face it so you know it was that. So I was lucky enough to find a job in the beauty industry and that helped me to sort of get away from this culture, which I think is where I maybe got some of my complacency from, because it wasn't in my everyday life, I wasn't you know. All of a sudden I'd managed to sort of move away from that. It took me quite a few years. So, you know, I was working with women and gay men, which I just adored that because I felt so safe, so that, yeah, told me that the world was okay and that, you know, it wasn't really an issue for me anymore because it generally wasn't. Um, every now and then I'd brush up against something, but it wasn't in my working environment. So, however, as we know, depends where you are and it depends who you are.
Speaker 1:Yes, and my experience was very different because, um, I was in the energy industry, which was the root of it. It was coal and burning stuff and you know the science bit generators. But I worked in the first in customer services, but then moved into energy trading and the sales and marketing, and so it was, yeah, pretty much most of the roles were filled with men and there were the, the odd woman who'd managed to rise to at least the senior leadership team, who I could try and emulate, but, um, they were probably more male than many of the male males were just to be taken seriously. So, honestly, literally literally every day of my life, I think, I am coming up against the patriarchy, or at least some form of misogyny. And when I started thinking about this question, it took me back to when I actually was trying to have it all and do it all, because that's what apparently we were supposed to do in the, the early noughties. But I was there with my career, married children, I was the breadwinner, um, and but I was also taking all of the emotional and all of the physical labor at home, and and I thought my husband was quite good because he cooked Sunday dinner, because he loved cooking, um, or he might, um, take the the cars to go and get their wheels done. You know I'm like, oh, he's so helpful. And then I was like I'm literally doing everything else, I'm taking like 99% of the, that, that labor, and doing all the organizing and everything like that. So that kind of patriarchal system was like, you know, there.
Speaker 1:And then I became a single mum and I literally have raised my children on my paycheck and, although my ex did pay the nominal basic legal requirement, that was enough to pay for their mobile phones and maybe some new school shoes, shoes, um, pretty much I have done everything. And being that that tough, independent woman, is really hard. I don't, I'm. There's no balance in my life, um, there's nobody to support me. So I am being mum and dad's in so many ways and carrying that burden and that's definitely the patriarchy, because it's almost like you know, okay, woman, you, you want everything, you want to be a single mum, you want to leave your husband. This is what your life's going to be like. I'm not bitter because I chose this, but it's been really hard.
Speaker 1:And then I thought about another um thing. When I was in my 30s I decided right, I'm going to get back into sport and I wanted to run. So I started with the couch to 5k part run and then built it up until I was doing half marathons. And then I realized when it got to September time that, oh, I can't run at night anymore because I was being hassled and heckled, and there were certain areas which I couldn't go to, and even now when I walk my dogs, I would never go into a dark area or a park. I stay on the pathways that are public and it's terrifying.
Speaker 1:And then the final example I want to give is when my 12 year old who's now 21, but she was 12 at the time came home and told me how she had been heckled by some builders on some scaffolding down the road and she was so upset because she'd never had such an attack. And when grown men were saying, all right, gorgeous, give us a smile. And she had literally nothing, there was nothing she could do. She was petrified. And unfortunately, both of my daughters have continued to experience absolute misogyny, sexism, pressure to get sexual from every single partner they've had. So so, yeah, every day, isn't it?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, I'm really feeling that one and and I want to say I think you're absolutely amazing and I know that you are doing the absolute brilliant work with your daughters. Yeah, you are amazing and you're doing amazing work with your daughters, and I really just feel the need to say that. And we, you know, as mothers, we cannot control what goes on outside of our doors and inside our doors sometimes as well. What all we can do is be there to support them, listen to them, you know, tell them that they're amazing, tell them that their feelings are justified and educate them on ways to, say, stay safe, knowing that things happen, don't they? And you know, I think that's going to be the biggest challenge for me as I watch my daughter grow.
Speaker 2:Um, I'm gonna have to do, I know that I'm gonna be doing work on myself. I mean, I'll always be doing work on myself, but, like, this is different level work now because as she's growing, I get triggered, so my old stuff comes up, and then I have to go away and, you know, do the work that I didn't do that time around because I didn't have the skills or didn't really know. So I'm almost like doing levels of healing, um, and support her at the same time. So it feels a little bit complicated, but I feel like it's also an opportunity for me to go back in and support that, the young girl inside that was really lost honestly, it does bring up memories of you at that age and the things that you have to deal with, and it unlocks memories.
Speaker 1:So in a way, it's really helpful, um, because when you were 13, 14, 15 and something happened to you in your head, you're like, oh, I'm, I can deal with this, I'm all grown up. And then you look and you realize, no, I was a child, I need, I needed something back then and I can give it to myself now. Um, so it's, it's supporting them, but it's also healing yourself.
Speaker 2:I totally agree with that so let's let's share some moments when we felt truly empowered as women, because we've talked a lot about the struggles. We want to get that, we want to get into some of the good, good, juicy, hopeful stuff here now. Where are you with that?
Speaker 1:um, every time I choose me, I feel empowered, um, and I guess that's anti-patriarchy, isn't it? You know, it's me choosing something for me. Uh, every time I followed my path or I've listened to my intuition and said go that way, I feel empowered. Um, every time I assert my boundaries and say, no, that doesn't work for me, or yes, that's something that's important to me, or my morals and ethics, that I feel empowered. But I have to say, it's been really hard. I've often felt like an outsider or the first one, the only one doing this. Um, I am a non-conformist in so many ways. It is quite lonely, or had been up until more recently when I found other women. Um, but together, when I am with women and we're sharing this, that gives me empowerment because I'm like I'm not the only one. Together, we can do amazing stuff. What about you?
Speaker 2:yeah, I feel like right now, right here in my work, in my life, I feel very empowered, I feel respected and valued. I feel like I've got, you know, my worth is being seen and there's a lot of purpose in what I do every single day. Um, you know it gets me out of bed, you know, in the morning very early. It. You know I'm still working, sometimes in the evenings because I just have to do it, like I just, you know there's, you know no way that I can almost like stop. Now I'm on this sort of trajectory of, um, creativity and purpose. So for me it's a good feeling and I've worked hard to get here and I'm very grateful that, you know, the time is now in some ways, because it means I get to sort of bring everything that I've been working on, cultiv, cultivating some of it's personal, some of it's professional. I can bring it all to the table.
Speaker 2:And I always wondered, you know, when you have experiences in life and you think what did that happen now, like, what was that really about? You know, what was the what's the learning that? What did I have to learn here? I always sensed, you know, I've had a lot of life experience, a lot of things have happened. I've had a lot of trauma in my life, alongside the good stuff as well, and I was.
Speaker 2:I always felt like it was something, that things that needed to happen to me personally, but I always knew that I would use whatever it was in a positive way to support others. I've always had that sense. From being a very little girl, I always knew that I came here to help others and that my job was to be kind to others like from the child point of view, um, and I'm a big believer in kindness, and so that's always been inside me. And as I've got older and older and older, now I've got to the point where I just think I've got. I I have actually got a lot to lose. So that's not true. I was going to say I've got nothing to lose, I have got a lot to lose. However, I just can't stay silent and quiet anymore. So you know, this feels like a liberating point for me, because whilst I have a lot to lose, still I'm prepared to take a lot of chances.
Speaker 1:I think that is that safety, knowing that the things that you could lose actually aren't going to go anywhere, with you being more you, um, in fact, they'll probably all be there supporting you and um, and it's that's where I think this, this really empowered position, comes from, where you you feel really safe in in your foundations and your grounding and your roots, um, and it just makes you go more into the world.
Speaker 1:And I like, when I think about people like Malala, who at such a young age was out there doing this work, and Greta Thunberg's, another one, you know they're like dealing with this stuff in their teenage years and it's almost like we get back to ourselves in our mid-40s and we remember that charged up teenager that we once were, but now we've got a much more balanced approach to go out there in the world and that is so empowering. And somewhere along our 20s and 30s, that is the sign where things happen to us and it keeps on trying to push us back to the path we were supposed to be on. And that's definitely the pattern that I've seen in my life that these awful things have kept me on the right path and, like you got lost a little bit, you got complacent. Here we're going to give you a nudge, so, although it's awful at the time, it does bring you back to that moment of. This is what you're supposed to be here for, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that takes me into the tips, you know, for what we want to pass along the line, because it's that willingness to step into the eye of the storm, I feel, instead of turn away or push it down or just go, that didn't happen, or I just can't go there, like I think. I feel like that's the most dangerous things that we can do, and there are times in life when we do that, but we have to what? As soon as we can, come back into the eye of the storm and face it. So for me it's like do not ignore the things that happen to you. Do not ignore, um, the good and the bad in a way, like you know, be there, be present, go to the limit of your longing, feel all the feelings, um, be present within itself, face it all and get clear on what's going on and what is the highest level meaning for you, like, what do you, what did you need and how is this delivering it for you? And then, when you're ready, you can look at what does the world need and how can I be part of that change? But first you've got to focus on you. We don't want to be jumping over into like, because that would just create more, more damage on the inside.
Speaker 2:It was like me, you know. I had to go away, work with a therapist, do my work, to make a decision Do I go to the police, do I not? Life also gave me some things that made me realize no, not right now, you've got something else. You've got a baby in your belly. Not your time, it it's. It's all of that working together and just taking it one step at a time.
Speaker 2:And you know, for me it's like we've got to be able to speak about life. We've got to be able to speak about our experiences and even if that is just um to one person, or to the mirror, or like you would always say to the dog or the cat, um, getting getting the words out of our body, you know, and out into the space does something really positive for us. And where possible, there are actions, but we doesn't always have to be an action. The action can be I'm not acting, but own it, you know. And I definitely want to say there's no more, there's no time for complacency anymore. That's what I feel like. Complacency feels that feels like a privilege from the past in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, what you were talking about was very much the internal that you can take in terms of going within and processing within. So I'm going to give an outward way of bringing in you know everyday facts, and actually the advice that I'm going to give you is listening or reading the words of others. So I might talk to my dog, I might talk to you on this podcast, and it's every single woman's story and their experiences. They're working through their own stuff. So my top tip is to get educated by listening and tuning in to women. So read women authors. There are some amazing male authors out there, but they are writing from a male perspective. So go find women authors. Listen to women's podcasts.
Speaker 1:Follow Women's Hour on the BBC, if that's your thing. Follow women's accounts on social media thing. Um, follow women's accounts on social media. A couple um that will help get your algorithm started is the guilty feminist, uh, un women. Uh, say it, sister, of course. Uh, jamila, jamil. Uh, florence gibbons you go follow those now and they are all amazing. Um, people and creators. But it will trick your algorithm saying, yes, I like this and keep liking them and commenting and sharing. And the more you start seeing and hearing other women doing their work, it helps you to do your own work. So it's that constant yin yang, that inner outer work. So that's it. Go support women, go like their posts because, let's face it, you know, not many women go viral or have these mass followings, unless it's to do with patriarchal, showing their bodies or, you know, airbrushing themselves. So go do that. Any final words before I complete, karen.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you for today. I feel like we've really sat and chewed the cud and we've touched on so many different points and some of them we've gone into, some of them we've not. We've just you know, name dropped a few things. So there's a lot for people to digest and learn. But I just want to say that if you're listening, if something's really speaking to you and it feels like, oh, I want to know more of that, or or that's my story, or what do I do now? Because I've heard something and it's resonating, you can go to our Facebook page and there's a private page there and you can put anything that you want to say to us in that message and we'll be there to support or even just to hear. You know it might be obviously heard words through the type, through typing, but we are here to support.
Speaker 1:So, please, please, come and join us and I would also say that if there's any topics you want us to cover or anything that we've covered over previous episodes that you think, oh, do you know what, let's explore that a bit more, or I'd like to hear that perspective. So do tell us. We'd love to hear what's going on in your world. And, just to complete, just a reminder really, that the feminist way is the human way. It's a call for equality for all. It's not an us and them, it's a togetherness. And if we can all just make one small, tiny act today that will help us live a more equal way, then you are being the change in the world, and when we come together and we start sharing and we do those little acts together, we are rising. So, with love, goodbye. So thanks for listening and we can't wait to welcome you next time.
Speaker 2:Until then, use your voice journal, speak or sing out loud however you it. We hope you join us in Saying.
Speaker 1:It.
Speaker 2:Sister.