Say it Sister...

True empowerment comes from within, not from others giving you permission

• Lucy Barkas & Karen Heras Kelly • Season 1 • Episode 43

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Lucy and Karen explore the concept of empowerment, what it means personally and professionally, and why those who feel empowered from within are more likely to empower others around them.

• Empowerment has become a buzzword, but true empowerment is about internal agency and freedom of choice
• Leaders often say they want to empower teams but struggle to genuinely share power and trust others' decisions
• The worst relationships teach us the most about empowerment by showing us what disempowerment feels like
• Societal taboos and expectations create invisible barriers to women's empowerment
• Being empowered means having the courage to express needs, set boundaries, and question authority when necessary
• True empowerment isn't measured by external factors like job titles or possessions
• A practical step toward empowerment is identifying your authentic "I ams" and "I am nots"
• Empowerment requires community and safe relationships where you can be real, not just performative

Trust yourself and what's coming through. Find those like-minded sisters who will join you on your journey of empowerment.


Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Say it Sister podcast.

Speaker 2:

I'm Lucy and I'm Karen, and we're thrilled to have you here. Our paths crossed years ago on a shared journey of self-discovery, and what we found was an unshakable bond and a mutual desire to help others heal and live their very best lives.

Speaker 1:

For years, we've had open, honest and courageous conversations, discussions that challenged us, lifted us and sometimes even brought us to tears. We want to share those conversations with you. We believe that by letting you into our world, you might find the courage to use your voice and say what really needs to be said in your own life.

Speaker 2:

Whether you're a woman seeking empowerment, a self-improvement enthusiast or someone who craves thought-provoking dialogue, join us, as we promise to bring you real, unfiltered conversations that encourage self-reflection and growth.

Speaker 1:

So join us as we explore, question and grow together. It's time to say say it, sister, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are in the world, welcome, welcome, welcome. We've got another amazing conversation around empowerment for you, sisters. So we're going to explore a little bit about what empowerment is, what it means to us, the work that we do, and over the weekend I have been exploring a little bit about empowerment, because the word itself gives me a little bit of the irk and I've just been trying to understand why that is.

Speaker 1:

And for years both Karen and I have been working with organisations around empowerment and to encourage leaders to let go of their power, share it, empower their people. But here's something that we've both learned those who feel empowered themselves from the inside, they are the ones who are more willing to empower others. So if we're to create a world where we all feel our own inner power, so that we live from our own choices and our own agency, and we want to create empowered workplaces, do we really need to start with our own internal, personal empowerment first? And another question that came up is can we truly become empowered alone? Hey, karen.

Speaker 2:

Hi, good to be here, as always, alone. Hey, karen, hi, good to be here, as always. These are really important questions and it's just taking me into the space of what it feels like to be disempowered, you know, in this idea of losing our voices, feeling fear, you know, wanting to be, you know, either feeling like we're being controlled or wanting to be in control of something. That feels very disempowering to me and closing down of something that actually, when we're empowered, we're open, we're collaborative, we are more able to respond from a creative rather than a reactive place. So I see the empowerment goal and I also am very, very aware of that feeling of disempowerment and I know where I want to be.

Speaker 2:

And at the same time, it just feel like a daily, daily practice of empowerment and, like you say, it's a feeling that comes from inside us. You can empower people and say I trust you, I believe in you, go find a way through that and let me know if you need me. That's, that is a form of empowerment and I've certainly been that leader and enjoyed being that leader. And yet if that, if the people on the other side don't believe you or are not feeling empowered, it's not really going to work. So personal empowerment has to be the key, the key coin that we put into the machine. And then it's got to go wider than that, because you can feel empowered, but then being in a disempowered space or work within a disempowered team, and it's not going to work.

Speaker 1:

I know, and I think that's why I was feeling like this little bit of an irk almost, because I think empowerment had become a little bit of a buzzword, because actually, when you go into what empowerment is, because they are empowered generally themselves, but then they scared to hand over that power, or they will to a certain degree, but then they come rushing in to try and fix or micromanage, because they're suddenly feeling out of control and they want to seize that power back.

Speaker 1:

And and I think that's where I was like, do people really want to empower others? Well, yes, but only when they are coming from that place within, I think. And so I got to the conclusion that absolutely, empowerment is absolutely everything that we all individually need. We need our own agency to be able to make decisions about our own life or the way that we're going to approach a project or the way that we run our families. And and it does take a real strong act of courage to be able to say I'm doing this my way, you know, because this feels right for me. But yeah, when the environments that you're in don't feel safe, I mean that that courage almost feels too much to bear, which is why we need other people to almost support us and encourage us.

Speaker 2:

Um, that's what's coming up for me yeah, and I think it's okay to rush in and then try and fit. I think that's okay because if you're what you're the leader at the very, very top and I know that most, you know most organizations still have these structures and there are more flat structures these days as well it's okay to rush in, but I think what is really important is that you then trust your team, who might turn around to you and say you need to just back off a little bit. Um, we're working through it, something like that, because I have been that leader as well. So I created an empowerment program with my team when I was about 28 and I worked at an amazing marketing agency and the the boss, who's still a friend of mine, julian Kiniston, said to me I love what you're about, I think you're amazing. I was only 28, I was really young. So what I've decided is you're going to have your own department and team, so you will be head of consumer PR and you'll have a team of people and you can hire those people. He said I don't care how you do it, just keep doing what you're doing. And if you want to write your like minutes in lipstick on the mirror, then you go do that and I was like, well, it's not really my vibe, but thank you for that, for your like belief in me. He really was really, you know, very, very open about how I did things.

Speaker 2:

And I went away and I thought, oh my God, I don't really know. I know how to do great work, but I don't really know how to. I hadn't done any leadership training. I'd always been a manager before that. So it was like, wow, I don't really know where to go with that. And I trusted different things and I looked around and I looked at how other people were doing it, which seemed to be we work through the line, you know the executive will do this, then they pass it to the manager, the manager does their thing, the manager passes it to the director and then the director might go with that from there or it might go further up.

Speaker 2:

Now I was at the top, um, and then all the way along there is red pen and tape and it's like backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards, and there needs to be a little bit of that. But I was like what I found was that I was staying in the office really late and I never wanted to do that and I never wanted to work like that. So I was like this is not working for me and if this is how I'm going to be leading my team, I don't want it because it's going to really destroy my spirit. And so I sort of got a coach and started working as a coach and and we created this empowerment plan. That was based on the problems that I was experiencing. That was also the problems for the team, because it doesn't feel good when someone's kind of coming back in critiquing your work, critiquing your work, but there was things like the same mistakes will be made over and over and over again, which again, is just frustrating.

Speaker 2:

So this program got created and we did the program and then every now and then I would get triggered by something, um, and the team would tell me to back off and I would do that because I did trust them deep down. But it was my own like oh, things are, you know, things, not right. Do you need me? And then I started to sort of fuss and, you know, kind of get involved in areas that I actually wasn't needed, and so then they realized I need certain things as well. So we were constantly creating together and I think that's okay. I just think you need to know, um, when to step in and when to back off, and you need and sometimes we need people to tell us. I mean, we have the instinct of I've got a feeling and I need to check in. I think that's OK too, but then you know, it's that kind of nuancing of like using your own inner wisdom versus listening to what people tell you and then steering from there what's coming up for you.

Speaker 1:

A couple of things actually. The first one was it comes back down to um. You can be empowered and you can give empowerment, but actually it's it's not um, it's not a individual pursuit, almost that it's always like in this tandem. So you can give empowerment, but that doesn't mean can you just like throw them under the bus? Um, there's this to-ing and fro-ing and checking in. The difference is, is that you're asking or you're making requests, rather than making demands or telling? And that then takes me on to the second thing that came up for me.

Speaker 1:

I'm not a doer, I'm not a generator of stuff, you know, and I've always been much more of a strategic, higher level, looking over the hill kind of leader.

Speaker 1:

And so whenever I was told that this is your job to get this done, I'd be like, yeah, it's my job to get this done, but it doesn't mean to say I'm doing it.

Speaker 1:

So I naturally came from an empowerment position that I always saw my team as being almost better than me and I was just there in a specific role as a leader to make sure that they had everything that they needed to be able to get their job done. And so empowerment to me just was a natural form of leadership, because I hate I personally really hate being told what to do, and I always have done from a kid and I always said if you ask me or engage me, then I'm willing to be there. But the minute you tell me what to do or what not to do, I'm just going to rebel. It's just I don't know deep within me. So therefore, I could ever be that kind of parent or be that kind of leader team member, and so I think again, that's something about empowerment. I've probably always come from an empowered position, trusting myself and backing myself, which I guess comes back from that link between feeling empowered and some kind of identity or self-expression. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Speaker 2:

I'm also not very good at being told what to do, because my brain doesn't work like that and I really I'm really just not good at following like formulas or steps. In a way I can do like a coaching process and follow a step. I can do that. That's not a problem for me. But it's like filling out forms, that kind of thing. I've really struggled and I used to be so bad. I'm much better than I used to be um, because now I don't panic when I look at a form, but I would get into like a place.

Speaker 2:

Someone asked me to fill out a form and it just felt really structured and my brain is, is is a bit like a loose cannon in a way, and there's a lot of creativity and deep thinking and thoughts and and I have to allow that process to work through me and that's also what I mean. It's, it's intense, but it's it's also what made me and makes me really great at what I do, because I walk away from my desk and an idea will come in or just a piece of information. I'm like, oh, wow, that's just coming now. It doesn't really happen at my desk, it happens away from my desk, and so that's why I couldn't, I didn't want to stay in the office all night, you know, looking at people's work, because I just knew that that was just a drain for me. So it's like the expression piece for me is about freedom and about you know, we've just been talking about that before with the podcast about really having a bigger faith or a bigger sense of something outside of me individual me really, really guides me, and then it gives me a lot of, you know, as soon as I start to relax and take it easy. That's when the magic happens.

Speaker 2:

So I'm kind of find myself in this sort of battle sometimes, but when I think about me expressing myself generally, there will be some laughter and there will be a level of lightness there, even if it's a serious topic, because that's when I'm really in flow. Yeah, so it comes back to the feeling again. It's that feeling of if I feel like I'm in, if I feel the word I'm getting is like this empowerment is freedom. It's a freedom to be inside yourself, to express yourself, to move away from your desk, to listen to that creative prompt or that wise voice that's coming through, that's giving you actually different information to what you were doing at your desk 20 minutes ago. That's the magic for me and that's where true empowerment comes in.

Speaker 2:

And when people say, oh you, oh, you've got a different idea or a different way of doing that, tell me more. And they're generally interested and they're on board with you and it's not forced or pushed through like I think it's that thing. We can get into it in business really easily. Like you know, we've got a presentation in two days and it's still not there and you're trying to work through things and you get into that force and push and it might be a good presentation but it's not really the best it could possibly be because of the pressure that is placed on it, and so we're not really operating in that truly, you know, empowered and creative place. Yet we've got deadlines.

Speaker 1:

I've got to say, though it's uh, for a manager or a leader, it is so much easier, um, to hold all the power and then just give out the sweets when necessary, because you literally do have an employer handbook or a system or a process that you follow and that's how you manage people. But I've got to say, on every level, managing or leading people in that hierarchy, in that power over it, may you may think you're getting stuff done because people are just doing it, but it's not fun, it's not stretching, it's not engaging, um, and I can guarantee you, your people are going home every day and you know your, your name is being run through all of the mud because it doesn't actually serve anyone. And I think that's where, for me, that that self-expression is really important, because if I was ever to hold meetings, even now, when I hold meetings, I say, look, here are the topic items, here's the goal. But I have my thoughts. But I really want to hear your thoughts first, because I'm only seeing a really narrow view. Come on, everybody, you know I want to hear your best thinking.

Speaker 1:

And, oh my God, the meetings are so much fun and they're engaging, their discussions they might get a bit heated but that's through passion, not say you know, I'm right, you're wrong. And so I always, whenever I work with teams, I always ask to go and sit in on one of the meetings or just observe or get an audio, and I can tell what a lot of the issues are just by the vibrancy of the meeting. And when people are silent or they're just head nodding, I kind of have to, you know, be really honest with the leader to say you're holding all the power here. Your people are not empowered, because it's. It's almost a feeling and a vibrancy that you can see and the fear.

Speaker 2:

The fear element is huge because obviously I was talking about pressure earlier. But I do feel like if you are in a team and the people at the top have that sort of like fear programming that's happening, or the just people just feel like they don't really, like they can make decisions, but those decisions are going to be, you know, overpowered or discredited and they're going to look ridiculous, you know, and the ideas weren't good enough and you get into that self-doubt place which is the anti thing of empowerment, like when we go into self-doubt overwhelm. We're disempowered, you know, and and that can be something personal to us, or it could be literally through coming through from you know, line managers all the way down. But I would imagine and I know that this is true, you know, if you've got somebody above you who is placing that through um, the work or through the relationship, that the person above them is doing the same and it kind of cascaded that, as we know, we like fear and panic, it's, you know, we catch it from each other as well.

Speaker 2:

So our feelings of how we're feeling on the inside then comes through us and our heart rate goes up and our brain start starts to work frenetically and people feel that in our, in the space around them, and then they think, oh, something's not right, you know so that disempowering energy or that feeling comes into the space. And then they go oh god, is it me, have I done something wrong? And then we can't think straight, like our brains are just like in fight, flight freeze and we've gone into survival mode and there's nothing good coming out of that, unless we generally need to run from a bear in the woods. You know, that's, that's the job of that.

Speaker 1:

I can honestly say that the worst relationship I ever had taught me everything I needed to know about empowerment. And prior to this relationship, I was fully empowered and I remember having saying to my friends, even as, like a late teen, you know well, if you're in an unhappy relationship, just leave. You know you're totally in control of your own life, you are a master of your own destiny. Because actually it is as simple as that. You know, when you are empowered, you make choices based on what, how is it serving me? And then obviously, life comes and gives you some signals to say, ah, it's not as simple as that, lucy, you need to do a bit of learning.

Speaker 1:

So they sent me this relationship which completely disempowered me and even though I was in the relationship, knowing I was being disempowered because of the fear and the anxiety and the stress and all of the codependence and independence that um interdependence that was happening, even though my brain knew that this was not a healthy relationship and I had to get out, I couldn't get out and it took me six years, six and a half years, before I actually was had the courage to get out, and I think that um taught me so much compassion and so much humility because it is easy for you and I or any other coaches out there, to say, oh, empowerment is just having agency, it's just you know, if you're not a tree move.

Speaker 1:

But it's so much more complex than that and that's why I think I got a little bit disheartened working with a lot of leaders where they were saying, yes, we want empowerment, but actually they just did not want to give up their rank and privilege and give power away. And so, yeah, you can see it happening with all of our relationships, through all the systems, whether it's government, schools, education, friendship groups, hobbies, workplaces, hobbies, workplaces. There's something there about, um, true empowerment.

Speaker 2:

Self-empowerment also is true freedom, and we all know what it's like when our freedoms have been taken away it takes me into the space of the conditioning, the stigmas, the taboos that exist that stop us from claiming that freedom. You know we've talked a little bit about the system needs to be right, the teams and the leadership style needs to be right for people to genuinely feel empowered and at the same time, that and that is 100% true. And at the other side of it I go people stay in jobs where they're totally disempowered and like you and your relationship. So there's something else happening that's underneath the service, and the thing with the taboos is they are invisible. So we can feel them, but they are invisible. So nobody's walking up to you with a big you know placard saying you know, here's a taboo, like, and it doesn't get talked about. So that's why they're so dangerous, because we have these taboos that we um connect to and we almost like follow and we don't want to sort of step out of the taboo, because if we do, oh my god, what will people think of us? For god's sake? You know so, but no one's sort of talking about it. Oh, this is a taboo, this.

Speaker 2:

Now we're talking about it much more through our work, because we realize that if we can talk about the taboos, then actually we can. We can be of service in a way, because once we start to disentangle those taboos because a lot of them have been placed inside us from society, from our early learnings, um, you know, from the culture that we live in so they're handed over to us and unless we actually I don't think this is my taboo to take on, I think we'll leave that one here. We're really we're stuck in it and we don't even know we're stuck in it, and that's when it becomes dangerous. And you know, when I think about taboos, I think about a woman that includes myself who is willing to say I have needs and my needs are x, y and z. Can you help me, will you?

Speaker 2:

This is what I need from you, or something like that, because I think the biggest taboo is that women don't listen to their needs, they don't honor their needs, they don't say no, they just keep taking in and taking on and I, I find myself in this situation a lot, and then I have to stop. We've been talking about that earlier, you know, and so it's that. Or saying yes to ourselves, which kind of is the bigger yes, you know that comes from the no to something else. So for me, that's a huge one, and I think it's something that we all need to sort of, you know, talk about and be aware of.

Speaker 1:

It's like what stops us from standing up and saying that's not working for me and then do you know what I couldn't name it really clearly in terms of my relationship? It was that it was the relationship after my marriage ended. So already I was a failure in relationships. Women are supposed to be in a relationship and good at relationships, um. So if I left another relationship, then I'm even more of a failure.

Speaker 1:

I also remember being worried about the disruption to the children because I'd already taken them from, you know, the marital home. Now we were living in another relationship with stepchildren and I'm like putting their needs of stability above my own hell that I was going through. So again, it was that societal expectation that you know I've got to do everything right for the children, even though me leaving was the best thing ever that I could have done for the children. Again, it was the disappointment in families' conversations when I told them that I was ending my first marriage. They were just so happy that I was settled in another relationship and then having to create the again family disappointment or shame or guilt. So it was all of those taboos that were keeping me in place because actually is that women need to be in relationships to be safe.

Speaker 2:

But we know and we see, and the figures of domestic violence and things like that as well have gone through the roof. So actually, in some situations, the worst place a woman can be is in a relationship. But we've been told and it's been jumped into us you know, you get married, you have a family, you stay in your relationship. Yeah, you can get divorced. You know people. That's kind of part of everyday life. So that's a shift and change. However, you're still safer if you're with a man, because that man will protect you.

Speaker 2:

But what? What happens when that man is not protecting you and when that man is disempowering you? And that doesn't have to just be physical, it's across the board emotional, spiritually, um, and your well-being, you know, in your body. I mean all of that. So we need to know that our empowerment is not linked to any other person, really, that our empowerment sits inside of us, and then we want to choose people who see us and want to be part of our empowerment journey, not the other way around. So that's, I think, the biggie, and I'm trying to think what taboo is like. What is the name of that taboo? Is it a safety tab?

Speaker 1:

Or have people been unsafe. I think it's so layered. It's the people. Society doesn't like independent women.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so I think it's something. There is safety there, but it's also like people know your place. You know the 2.4 nuclear family is what the government told us in the post-war years was what we were supposed to aspire to. And if we're not that, then we're not fitting into society. Even though it was just some, you know, like I said, post-war program, it didn't actually mean anything. Nobody actually worked out happiness and success was based on 2.4 children. It was just a notion. But somehow, you know, through propaganda and everything, we all believed it. And which goes back to this freedom aspect again, you know to be radically free, free in your thoughts, free in your choices, free to live the life that means and matters to you. That's dangerous, because that that, who knows where society will go then?

Speaker 2:

and it's a freedom to be real with how you're feeling and what's coming up for you, as opposed to like we've been talking about this but the you know smiling, everything's fine, my life is great. You know, like you, there's a performance element to that and then there's a reality element to that and I feel like, for me, when we're empowered, we've got to select who we show what to. I still believe in that because we're not showing everyone everything, but when we you know having the people in our lives where we can go, actually no, I'm not in this moment I am not okay. I know I'm fundamentally okay, but I know that there's something that's required of me and it's it's inside. You know, it's as simple as that. For me, that is through empowerment, because there's no, we're not masking and we're not in the performance of the dance. That actually doesn't serve us, because we just put more pressure on ourselves. Then, because people think, well, she seems to be doing well, why don't we give her that? Because this is what also happens.

Speaker 2:

You know, overwhelm is a huge thing and it's always been a factor in my life, because my brain thinks a lot and I'm very good at getting things done. So often I would find that I had more of a plate, you know. But I was terrible at saying, well, why have I got all of this? And that person sitting there has got. You know, I've got four um brands to look after and that person's got one or two, and mine are really big brands as well. So, what's happening here? And it's because I'm capable, so over time, you know, and I have to keep working with this to say where's the line here? Where's the line so that I can stay empowered and actually continue to focus on what I need to do, as opposed to, you know, actually feeling very disempowered because I know that the, the balance is off and the you know how things are being proportioned isn't right and the taboo there is around.

Speaker 1:

Well, we, um, we don't question our, our elders or our bosses or our doctors or our parents. Uh, we don't question them, um. And so we just keep taking, and taking, and taking, and actually it's a load of rubbish. And if we stay silent and just keep taking, taking, taking, we do get into overwhelm and burnout. And so, breaking those taboos, you know, and I know that you and I have both done this with our children to say you know you don't automatically respect people, you know they have to earn your respect. And so, breaking that old taboo, um, so that you can say actually, boss, why have I got five case studies and they've only got one. Can we have a discussion about it? It's not about throwing your toys out the pram and having a hissy fit, it's about challenging from an empowered place, absolutely and it's vital, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

it's vital that we notice, that we become more aware. Then we check in with ourselves and go, ok, what's also my body telling me? And then from there we can step into and now, this is, this is what I want to ask for, this is what I'm seeing, you know. Then you get into a discussion and I feel like empowerment is genuinely the thing that the company is going for, that the teams are going for. All those voices should be allowed to be heard, everyone should be able to have a say. You know, it's good to have a time where you go, where you think about it and you come back, because otherwise, again, it's not an empowering space, because if we're not listening to each other, our voices are not empowered. Therefore, you just become, you know, it feels like you're in, like the machine almost, you know, and the feelings that come from that anger, frustration, resentment you know, again, that this is not conducive to a empowered environment. I'm going to say that's the word I was looking for.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, our work here is not to be the powerful ones and saying you are now empowered to our listeners and to our clients, but we're there to almost give them the permission slip to empower themselves so that they can like. Actually, yes, I can power up and listen to my own needs or request what I want or make a change in my life because I am empowered and I think that's a truly amazing gift. And as coaches, we would never tell anybody what to do, you know, because that's not our job. But we can absolutely shine a light, give that permission slip, and it's up to our listeners, up to our clients to take hold of it in the best way that they can, to take hold of it in the best way that they can. Um. So what tips or advice would you give to somebody who wants to take just even if it's a tiny step into being a little bit more empowered?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I think, focus on who you are as a human being, like go back into your I am's, you know, and spend some time connecting to your heart, and it's like, what are the things that you know about yourself? Like I am kind, I am, um, caring. It's kind of the same thing. I am creative, and it's like we start to sort of like put that down on paper. So it's like it's inside us, but we almost, like need to acknowledge ourself for it. And that's when we start to feel into like oh, this is who I am. Ok, so if I am kind, caring, brilliant, creative, then what choices can I make? You know, what am I going to say yes to? What am I going to say no to? And quite quickly, you're going to see I mean, you'll know it already because it's inside you.

Speaker 2:

The reason you're thinking about empowerment is probably because you you want more of it. So, therefore, go deeper and then start to break it down for yourself and and sometimes we can look at that paper and go kind of got everything I need here. You know, other times there's definitely actions that need to be embodied, like there's no point writing on a piece of paper um, I need more time for myself and then continuing, you know, getting back on that hamster wheel. So there does need to be a change, otherwise you won't feel empowered. Um, you know, we don't want fake empowerment. There's enough fake stuff in the world. You know, pseudo self-esteem and, um, we don't want that. That's definitely not the work, and it's easy to fall into the traps of that like, okay, well, if I go get that promotion, I'll feel more empowered. But is that promotion really really really what you want right now?

Speaker 1:

you know, and that's just external. Yeah, and and I, my advice, my top tips would be um, to stop measuring your power or your empowerment by what's seen externally. So it is the job, the house, the car, the holidays. They do not empower you, that's just wallpaper almost. Empowerment comes from the place, from within.

Speaker 1:

And so, just like Karen, you said about write down all the things that I am, equally important is to write down all the things that I am not. And what we tend to see in, especially when we're feeling really conflicted in life, is that, whatever situation or system we're in, we are hanging out more in the I am nots and you're showing up in that space. And so, again, it's almost like just a pulse test, a temperature test of like list, all of the I am's list, all all the I am not's, and just work out a percentage of in this group or this system or in this work that I'm in, how much of myself am I being real and what can you do to empower yourself, just to notch it up more towards the I am's. And on that note, I'm going to ask you to wrap up, karen.

Speaker 2:

Well, I've loved the conversation today. Today I've felt myself gradually soften and open as we've gone through the conversation, so that means that I'm definitely moving through a cycle here into something that feels much more grounded. And you know, it is a reminder for me that we need to spend time and we need to invest time on the inside, and having conversations with like-minded women is part of that, because it opens something up so we can listen and then we can reflect and then we can tune in and learn. So I feel like I've been on a journey today. So I want to thank you for that and say to everybody you know, no matter where you are right now, there is a beautiful journey that's unfolding in you. But trust, trust yourself, trust what's coming through and find those like-minded sisters who will join you on your journey of empowerment. Until next time bye.

Speaker 1:

So thanks for listening, and we can't wait to welcome you next time.

Speaker 2:

Until then, use your voice, journal, speak or sing out loud. However you do it, we hope you join us in.

Speaker 1:

Saying it.

Speaker 2:

Sister.