Say it Sister...
Lucy and Karen, two 40-somethings, are always chatting about life, and all that it has to throw at them, and now want to share their raw, honest conversations with you. Their journey of finding their own voices, self-discovery and healing is something many of us can relate to. We all possess a unique power within us, but life’s trials often knock us off course. They have the tools, the courage to speak up and simply say it as it is, so you might feel seen, and understood and gain practical tools and techniques for self-discovery and personal growth during the changes we experience.
Say it Sister...
Rachael Lemon. From Queen Bee Syndrome To Brave, Inclusive Leadership
We examine how fear, scarcity and old role models fuel Queen Bee dynamics at work, and how to replace them with mentorship, sponsorship and clear allyship. Rachael Lemon shares lived stories from healthcare leadership and offers practical challenges to build trust and safety.
Rachael Lemon is the rebel force behind LemonAiding™ leadership done differently.
She’s an executive coach, consultant, and Editor-in-Chief of EmpowHER magazine, giving women a global stage to say the things they were told to swallow.
• defining Queen Bee Syndrome and its roots in fear
• lived examples of bullying, undermining and idea theft
• the cost of caregiving load and menopause at work
• why timely feedback and psychological safety matter
• masculine masks, energy alignment and authentic power
• mentorship over gatekeeping and the value of sponsorship
• delegating, trusting and co-creating team standards
• acknowledging neurodivergent needs and RSD sensitivity
• building women’s forums and informal support circles
• three challenges for braver, more inclusive leadership
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EmpowHER magazine
https://link.rachaellemon.com/empowher
Connect on LinkedIn
http://linkedin.com/in/rachaellemon-leadership-coach-mentor
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Welcome to another episode of the Say It Sister Podcast, brought to you by Wise Women Lead Founders Karen Heras Kelly and Lucy Barkas.
Speaker 2:This is your space for real unfiltered conversations about womanhood, the messy, the magical, and everything in between.
Speaker 1:We're here to talk about existing, thriving, and empowering ourselves and each other by connecting to our experiences and truths. And saying them out loud. So that we can feel and heal. We're called upon to name the taboos, stigmas, stereotypes, and lies that keep us stuck. So we can rise and reign like queens.
Speaker 2:Because when women share, we hold space, inspire action, and create change. We open up spaces and deepen relationships that bring us closer to love and a better world for all. So get comfy, grab your favourite drink, and let's say it sister. Welcome back to Say It Sister. This week we have a guest and we are talking about the toxic trait that shows up in the Queen Bee Syndrome. You know the idea that women in leadership sometimes hold other women back instead of lifting them up. The idea that mean girls and those alpha bitches are these legendary archetypes. But we're going to add a little bit of zest to this topic that can often have a bit of a sting to it. So we're going to welcome Rachael Lemon, who is the founder of Lemonading and editor-in-chief of Empower Her Magazine, a rebel coach who teaches women to stop fitting in and start standing out. A domestic abuse survriver, speaker and leadership disruptor. She brings lemony snippet, truth bombs, and zero tolerance for workplace dynamics that pit women against each other. We're not going to just talk about the problem. We're exploring how to create a sisterhood in the workplace. But before we say hello to Rachael, I want to say, hey Karen.
Speaker 1:Hey! I am very happy to be here today, and I'm so excited to have Rachel with us because we have all been messaging each other for months now, and just to have the three of us in one room is going to be incredible. Um so so happy. And we really I love the idea of lemonade. The idea of you know, adding that zing, adding that truth, you know, putting it all together and creating something that is just so yummy because that's what we want. We want more of the joy, we want more of the connection. But let's start with the basics, Rachel. Tell everyone a little bit about you and why you do the work you do.
Speaker:So my background is in healthcare and at you know, 30 odd years, um started pharmacy but worked a lot in, you know, got in leadership, professional leadership, national leadership, um, represented by profession on the English pharmacy board at the Royal Pharmaceutical Society. So I've experienced and I started that kind of I suppose they would call it political back then, but I started that kind of journey quite young, and so I was like very often the only woman in the room, and so uh, and in some ways it hasn't changed or it's gone back to how it was, but there was also this very much you would have hoped that the other women in the room when they were there would be your advocate, and they absolutely weren't, and the more the older I get, the more I reflect on how many women in my career actually haven't helped me get where I wanted to go, they've actually done the office opposite, and I've always been fascinated by the behaviours behind people, you know. Like I think it's easy, it's easy to blame people, but actually it's more understanding the behaviours, like why do people behave like that? And I think when we talk about Queen Beast and Dover in particular, it's kind of it's fear, isn't it? There's there's a kind of there's a group of women that fought so hard to get to where they've got that their mindset is like I'm not gonna risk my position by letting anybody else join me, rather than the kind of behaviour and sisterhood that we want, where it's kind of like, yeah, I worked really hard to get here, and now I'm gonna make sure everyone else gets in. Because the more voices, diverse voices, not just women, but diverse voices in general that we have, the better leadership will be. Because, you know, leadership isn't the old white boys' club anymore. You know, like times have changed, and and the way we lead needs to change, you know, like um we don't need top-down leadership, we need inclusive leadership, we need compassionate leadership more than ever. And um, you know, as in healthcare, especially, you would expect that to be the norm, you know, like caring profession. And so the aid part of the lemonade is actually kind of from aid as in first aid.
Speaker 1:It's like that idea of leaving the ladder down, but I always go into the place of something has happened to that woman to create this behaviour. And I had a really bad boss, I'm going back to being sort of 31, and I moved to London from Leeds and joined this huge agency that was one of the biggest independent agencies in the world. And my boss was a woman, and I never encountered anyone quite like this woman before. And she basically bullied the entire all the women in her department, she had a big department, and I was an associate director, and there were two other female associate directors. She was here, and there was the three of us here, and then cascaded down. The men she was like fawning all over, you know, the men in the in the department, but the three of us were just getting like targeted. And I remember we had like these old phones, and she would call up, and you'd see her pick the phone up from the bottom of the room, and we'd all we'd sit with each other, the three women, and you'd think, Oh, please don't make my phone call, like don't let that ring. And then you'd pick up the phone and she'd be like, Can you come in here now? And we'd all be like, Oh my god, you know, and systematically she broke us all down, you know. And then one of my colleagues had she was losing her hair, her teeth were falling out. I mean, it was really, really bad. And I remember thinking, I used to think I was creative, I used to think I was good at my job, but I actually don't think I I'm very good at all. Maybe I I was just lucky. And it was like the breaking down of me was huge in my life. And I I remember thinking, please get me out of here, and I don't know how to get out. And I was calling home saying, I think I need to leave, and they were like, just hang in there, you'll be fine, you're brilliant at your job. And I was like, No, no, no, it's not right. And then the thing that got me out was I got hit by a car, and that's how bad it was. And there was nine months of my voice is starting to close down, but nine months of hell. And this woman is still in the business and she's still doing what she's doing, and you know, that was over 20 years ago now, and it still has the same sort of effect on me, but I actually learned how to stand up for myself after that happened, once I got over the getting hit by the car. So I'd just love to hear your take on that, you know, and and what you would say to that woman and to that business who's employing her.
Speaker:I think as well, like I don't know if you found, but like in that situation, you were probably instead of then the three of you being like so in solidarity, there was also a subconscious thing of trying to not be the person who's being picked on. And we don't talk about you know, that kind of part of the culture where it's like, like you said, that dreading the phone call of being called into the office, but also then sometimes that relief that we don't want to admit, like, I'm just glad it's her, not me today, because like we had enough, and being able to, I think that the kind of like allyship is really important, isn't it? Because if we don't have allies in that situation, then everybody's just surviving, which is understandable because when you're in a situation like that, and you know, sadly I speak to so many women today who are in exactly that same position, and to the point, you know, I've had a few people this year where they have been like, you know, they can only see the way out of it as taking their life, and this is awful, isn't it? Because this is a ultimately like we've all had life-changing experiences where we realise a job's just a job, but it shouldn't get to the point where you've had that bad accident or I've lost everything, or you know, we should be able to know we're all educated, we've all studied for years, we worked really hard, we've done the leadership courses, you know, we've done all of the training, we've always made an effort. And I think most women are like that, aren't they? And we also have to remember that women as well are generally the caregivers to the children, the parents, whoever. So sometimes before you've even got to work, you've done a full-time job, and you know, like, and and then you know, menopause, so it's menopause awareness month as well, isn't it? That actually women can be blimmin' exhausted. That's before you've even got into the battlefield that's work. And so just having that, I think we can't we can we can learn to have boundaries and we can learn to kind of have those difficult conversations and also you know put in that kind of like I'd rather you didn't speak to me like that, or but also teach each other to be allies and kind of like you know, when somebody does talk over you, because it's those subtle kind of undermining things that really start to make you question your sanity, aren't they? You know, that brilliant idea that you had that you put forward to your boss, and she's kind of shushed you out of the office, told you it's rubbish, and then the meeting next in the next staff meeting, you know, she's had a brilliant idea and everyone's like, Yay! And you're like, Oh, okay. So I think even sometimes, you know, if if we notice it at work, you know, if we're in a leadership position ourselves, then I think we've got responsibility to call it out, not necessarily in public, but we can start that conversation with the person. But again, if if you're in around a board meeting and somebody's being a bully, I think we can you know, I would feel confident enough to say, look, actually, that's not okay way to speak to somebody, or you know, I've worked with um a really brilliant pharmacist who literally people have not acknowledged that she spoke, and then five minutes later somebody else has said what she said, and I've it you've had you know, I've been like, excuse me, but that's what she just said five minutes ago. Like, did none of you hear that? And so being able confident enough to call that out at that level, but when we are like, so you're talking about being 30, and so that's a kind of weird age, isn't it, for us career-wise, because we've done the uni thing, we've established ourselves, and then we are getting into that kind of I'm ready to be in a leadership or senior role. And that's when if your confidence gets knocked at that age, it takes a long time to pick to bring it back up.
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Speaker 2:There's another perspective I just want to um bring in, and it's like, why are some women behaving this way? And I think from from what I've seen in my experience, um the women are doing it because of fear, and I think one of you named that earlier. Um, but I have known many men behave like this, and it's dismissed as leadership and or you know, that's their dominant character. And then when a woman does it, um, we kind of take notice because, like, well, that's not very feminine or that's not very womanly, and so it almost makes it takes us off guard for a start because they're not being sisterly. Um, but equally for them, for them to be taken seriously in the boardroom, they need to put on this tough alpha exterior just to be able to survive. And historically, that's the the role models that got to the top. And you look at a lot of women in the 80s and 90s, they had to be tougher than the men to be able to survive in that environment. And then other generations coming through are seeing, oh, that's how women have to get ahead, and so they're just mimicking the only role models that they've ever had. But when you take that woman, that tough Queen Bee, out of that environment and talk to her as a one-on-one human being, you realise that actually she's just the same as all of us. She's just learnt this set of skills as a survival technique. And, you know, part of the work that we do is to show them another way that actually you can be strong and powerful by supporting and creating collaboration and partnerships and being bigger supporters. You don't have to join the boys, you can lead in a completely different way. Um, and I'm just curious about uh from both of you about what other things do you think might be driving that? That's me from a social scientist point of view and social conditioning, but what else might be going on to make women behave like this?
Speaker:So I think we've we've established fear, fear definitely, and fear of fear of not being accepted, because you know, you've had to work that extra bit harder to get the seat at the table, whatever the whatever level of management it is, whether it's a management role or you know, once we start going to board level, women are less like in healthcare. I think the World Health Organization says only 13% of CEOs are women, yet in healthcare the global workforce is probably 70 to 80% female, so the misrepresentation is huge. So those women, we we are still in a minority when we get to that level, and I think there are there is there's two things you said. Uh so I work in energy, like masculine and feminine energy, and I work with some brilliant men who have who lead with a more feminine energy rather than a masculine energy. I think there's some women that generally are just they have masculine energy and that's how they lead, and then there's other women that are actually beautifully soft feminine leaders, but once they get there, they realize wow, this is tough, I'm gonna have to act in a certain way to fit in. And those people then are the people that come to us because for coaching, support, and mentorship, etc., because they're completely out of alignment of who they are, and they don't want to be that person. And I think you know, there's a lot of women that have been in that position where they've had to, you know, mask or they've had to put fit in with the boys or fit in with the people at the table already, otherwise they and they feel like they're not going to get seen and heard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just want to build on that because it's also this idea of going to war, and me and Lucy have talked about this many times, but so many of the women I work with, they have their armour and they go into, you know, and they've got high purpose, you know, driving them, so they're very, very purposeful. They're actually very, very caring, but they have gone, they have done like 54 years of like going and fighting for everything, you know, to get to that, to get that result, to create that amazing um product campaign to make sure the team are taken care of. And they're so they're fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting all the time. Is that they also don't have a space to actually go and talk about the real stuff, the things that are going on in their life, and that is something that I see now. There's a bigger need more than ever for women to have, you know, coaches, expertise where they can just go and take all of the armour off, take the mask off, and say, I have this fear at the moment and I'm really concerned about this, or this is going on in my private life, and it's really affecting me, and it's making me want to, you know, not go into the office or whatever it might be, so that they can take care of their own inner needs and they can really, you know, listen to what's going on in their own bodies and they can get support and also learn how to regulate themselves as they're going out doing their leadership jobs because when they're regulated, their energy is going to shift things around for the people around them. And this is, you know, I suppose you could have called it new age back in the day, but it's not new age anymore. People have really woken up since COVID to the fact that we have to take care of ourselves and our well-being is essential, and our stress levels have such a huge impact, you know, outside of our bodies. Um so that's the big one for me. And I think when women have the space and the time that's dedicated and they take it, then there's big shifts that happen internally, which then shift everything on the outside. But you know, I suppose I'm thinking about the woman that I had the experience with. You know, she was so stressed out of her mind. She was swearing, she used to sit at her desk and drink wine. Um you know, if she could if she could have had a cigarette in there, she would have done. I think, you know, it was like this kind of really, really very, very toxic. So I used to look at her and think, Yeah, I do, I wasn't a coach then, but I used to think, oh my god, something really bad happened to you. Because this is not like the way the way you are showing up is you know, so crazy and wild. But the company, you know, companies who hire these people have a huge responsibility, is what I would say to say, actually, this person might be brilliant at her job because there's a reason she's in that seat. However, the way she's showing up, the way that she's behaving, because if I can see it, you can see it, um, is not acceptable. And therefore, we need to do something. So we need to offer her the support and then go down the line with that. So that's really what what what I I think companies have a responsibility to support women. Um, and then there's also the hard conversations that need to be had as well.
Speaker:And and fear again comes back to fear, but having staff that fear you is not being a good leader. Yeah, having staff that on Friday night are already dreading Monday because it used to be Sunday, but now we speak to people, and you know, some of the people I worked last year, like one didn't take a holiday because she was so scared of what it would feel like when she went came back that she just didn't take her annual leave. So she was just like, I'd rather just keep that even keel of this is bad, but if I take a week or two weeks off, it's gonna be even worse. So I think there's that there's a fear of kind of letting go for a lot of people, isn't there? They're kind of there's a big fear of delegation, you know, like because, like you said, you've got all of that responsibility on you as a leader, you're responsible for you're accountable, aren't you? And I think maybe accountable and responsible are different things that we need to dig into, not necessarily that, but as women ourselves, you know, like what does accountability mean? And also empowering people and being able to delegate because maybe sometimes it's because we can't trust ourselves that we don't trust our teams to do stuff, but by doing that, then we create a culture where people don't get to grow. And I think I know in the past, like you just you just made me think about I had we had a pharmacy manager at the time, and she was always angry, and she threw, we had these like great big books back then, you know, talking before mobile phones and apps, uh, data sheet compendients that had every drug ever you know invented was in this book, and the book was huge. And one of my colleagues, another girl, she'd made a checking, uh made a mistake of dispensing, and this this leader that we had, she came out and she threw this massive book at her. Wow. And it was huge. I mean, like, you know, it could be assault, but like, and all the pills just blew up in the air, and like everybody was just like stunned into silence, and like again, it's that I think when you're in a culture like that, it's that kind of oh, I'm just glad it's not me that had the book thrown at the end.
Speaker 2:I have to say, I I've never in both of your stories, I've never experienced anything like that. I've never experienced anyone losing it or throwing or intimidating in that way. Um, what I do tend to see though is, and I'll go back to like the word the mean girl behaviours. And that's like, you know, we all know that men and women deal with conflict differently, and um, and which is why we had like the mean girls in the the schoolyard calling each other's names and forming cliques and silos and um falling out and saying you're not my friend and excluding, and that's a very feminine way that we learn in the in the school playground, and then for some reason, a lot of people don't, or a lot of women don't unlearn that, and so therefore they take it into the workplace. And I I just want to share a story with you um about like a mean girl who I met, and actually I didn't realise she was a mean girl, she was my colleague, so we were on the same level. Um, and we were civil to each other, we meet in those monthly meetings and stuff like that, but I can always get a vibe from her, and she was totally the professional type. Um, you know, she would always wear the right clothes, um, she would never uh joke around or anything, complete professional on every way, to the point where it was like she's kind of soulless, you know, it just it just didn't, there was no warmth coming from her. Anyway, we got on, um, like colleagues do. And then there was a promotion, and I was asked to go for the promotion, and I didn't really want it, but I went along anyway, and it was in this hotel, and I was sat there in the lobby waiting to go into the interview, and she'd walked out, and I hadn't realised she'd also either been asked or she'd put herself up for the job. And the minute she clocked me, everything changed from that moment on, and that she started telling tales about me, spinning gossip, trying to turn other people against me, and it was absolutely ridiculous. To the one point where she was trying to make out that I was a misogynist and I was racist, and anybody who knows me knows that's just not in my DNA. And so people were then starting to come to me and say, Do you know she's saying these things about you and and stuff? And I just dealt with it head on, and I just because I have my boundaries, and I just confronted her and I said, Look, what's the beef? And she couldn't explain it. And I think that is probably more insidious than what we see more in workplaces, that kind of mean girl spirit to try and keep that Queen Bee superiority kind of status. But I may be wrong, it might just be that I've been lucky and I've never seen that all-out horrendous people like you've just uh both shared.
Speaker 1:Well you can't it can be subtle, can't it? They can be the subtle forms, and then there's a more overt, you know, that is very, very obvious. And I don't know which is I don't think there's any I don't think it's about that. But either way, you're facing something, and either way, it has a direct impact on you. And I think, you know, if anyone listening to this, it's about focusing on the impact on you. So if you're feeling something, I always go into like how to help one person, but if you're feeling it, then you're feeling it, and therefore something's happening. And from my lessons of learning, it's like listen to your instincts and your intuition and don't wait, just take an action, do something, and keep acting until you know you're you're through that door. Whatever that looks like, it might be that you're staying in the organization, but you've gone and had a conversation with HR. Um, you know, if somebody's showing up in a certain way, generally there's a backlog behind. So if we align in the right ways, you know, you I love that you spoke directly to her. That's very powerful, but not everyone, you know, has the courage to do that.
Speaker 2:So I also think because it was more subtle, it wasn't so overt, it didn't feel too much of a stretch. And I went in with that curiosity to say, Hey, I've heard this. Yeah, is this true? Um, because it was, yeah, it was that passive aggressive style rather than all out. And I don't know if I'd have handled it the same way had it been an all-out um yeah, bitch fest.
Speaker:So that comes back to what I call the like when I talk about Queen B, like the scarcity mindset. So there was like one position and you were both fine for the same thing. So that's when her kind of Queen B started to sting, was like, she's now my threat. Before you were just like someone who maybe she was indifferent to, but once you became a threat to her career progression, that's when she kind of got the stingers out and kind of you know made life, like you said, on that undermining behaviour, etc. And I think that's when we do, like you said, because you had allies, people that came and said, like Lissy, I know you, I know you, that's not who you are. That but there's also those workplaces where no one tells you, or you have people whispering in corners, and then like you know, that's that's the horrible bit, isn't it? That's when the kind of bullying and the gaslighting, and you do start to question yourself, or if you do you are brave enough to say to somebody, was that about me? And they're all like, No, no, no, of course it wasn't. Then you start to question yourself, and that's when we have people dreading to go to work and questioning whether they're really good at their jobs, or you know, what should I do, especially like if we are neurodivergent, and you know, like more and more of us are discovering now in our 40s and 50s that actually we weren't diagnosed, but that extra sensitivity, you know, the RSD and that kind of being uh being more of an empath because that's a trait, but also that kind of RSD where like you're really sensitive. So again, and and with autism as well, you know, all of it it's kind of like those throwaway remarks that someone makes that they don't realise, they can really impact people. So that kind of like, I want to see you in my office next week, where nobody actually tells you what it's about, that leaves you, you know, that leaves people having an anxiety attack all weekend or they don't sleep or they don't eat. And so instead of just saying, look, this has happened, let's talk about it. I mean, I always think it's best to talk about things not in a moment of panic or anger, but if something's happened, it's always better to talk to people as soon as possible, isn't it? Not leave them hanging for a week by the you know, we've all got dogs, it's like telling your dog off after they've done something, they've forgotten all about it. So, yeah, if we don't deal with things when they happen, it's it's less likely to get resolved in a good way, isn't it? And so I think, but I think as well, we have to kind of the behaviour is about them, not us. And it's really hard when you're in that situation of being bullied or being made to feel small or whatever it is that's that makes you feel rubbish, is to think that that person's targeting you. And I think it's really good grounding for all of us is to remember that other people's behaviour is always about them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good reminder. And so I guess now we we want to try and flip it and say, okay, we know that some people are having these behaviours because of fear or competition, scarcity mindset, all of that kind of stuff. So what's the reverse of that? How do we flip it so that we build sisterhood? And even if there's only two of you or three of you at that level in a whole organization, how do you make sure that you're you're there for them and you're showing that sisterhood? So, what both of you, how can you speak to that?
Speaker:So, for me, I think it's around first of all, yeah, ditching the scarcity mindset. It's recognising that it's sisterhood isn't you know something that's nice and fluffy that we see on Instagram. Uh, it's actually what we do, what we choose to do. And it's kind of like mentorship over gatekeeping. Um, so I'll give you an example. We had a dispensing robot with first in the country, and the person in charge at the time, she wouldn't let anybody else touch it. Um, because she wanted to, you know, that would take away her power if anybody else knew how to work a single soon as I got that position. I was like, everybody's gonna learn. I don't want to be the only person, I don't want to be called in at midnight because it's broken. Like, let the whole team learn, you know, why should they rely on me? So it's that kind of yeah, like making sure everybody gets to share, and you know, not gatekeeping, spot sponsorship as well. I think, you know, we talk about mentorship and coaching, but we also we don't talk enough about sponsorship, so you know, advocating for the other women in your team, like um, you know, maybe there won't be a promotion in your department or your organisation, but you can still be celebrating the people in your team that are brilliant in other rooms where they might get an opportunity, and so kind of like surely as leaders, we want our team to flourish, we want them to do better than us, we want them to take what they've learnt from us, bring their own magic, and go and be even better than us. You know, that's the sign that we've mentored somebody really well, isn't it? That they're actually, you know, we're we're in retirement and they're kind of the next generation of best leaders. So I think there's that, and then there's the advocacy, isn't there? You know, there's like speaking up if it's safe to do so, and if it's not, you know, if you're in a team meeting or something happens, or but even just afterwards going to that person, acknowledging them and saying, I saw, you know, I saw that wasn't very comfortable. So if it wasn't comfortable for me, how are you feeling? Just know that there are people that have noticed and kind of were on your side, and just giving somebody that kind of just being able to start the conversation gives people a little bit of hope, doesn't it? Because it's any kind of bullying is isolating.
Speaker 1:I yeah, and for me, like it's all about empowerment because for me I see empowerment as helping things go right, not empowering things to go wrong. And I think until we s we flip that switch into actually empowering people, helping people, nurturing people, that is a leadership skill, you know, and and the c and companies totally buy into that because at the moment you've got well, what were the results, you know, what are what were the outputs of that and how do we benchmark that? So we're looking at results, but actually to get those results, there's a whole raft of skills, of techniques, of listening to each other and um helping people to feel safe in the workplace so that they can come with ideas and thoughts, helping um your team to know that actually they can make a mistake. And as long as they learn from that mistake, you know, and it's gonna be fine, you know, and and and it's it's all of that. I think we reward people for the results, but I don't think we necessarily reward people for how they got to those results. And I think there's a huge shift that needs to happen because you know I've I've been in teams, I've led teams for me, I was like if I've got to sit here and go through everyone's stuff and put red pen on it, because this is like going back sometime, you know, and I used to print things out and no one does it anymore. But you know if I if I if I'm doing that and I'm and everybody's staying here late and there's a backlog of work then I'm failing in my job. I might be brilliant at what I do but I'm failing in my job as a leader. And I didn't know much about leadership at that point. I hadn't done all the leadership training or the coach training. So but I just knew how it felt inside me. I was like this is I am so dissatisfied. I love my job but the way that this old school sort of hierarchical thing is working the way that I was schooled and taught you know when I went in at 21 I'm now you know much I'm older. I don't want to do it like that anymore. So I'm gonna change that. And so we did it together. Me and the team co-created an empowerment plan. It was way ahead of its time you know and we left on time and we we didn't have that red pen sort of filter that was going through and you know we focused on getting things right but we focused on doing it the right way. Do you know what I mean? And it was just so powerful for me and I was like wow that's what can be done when we take a step back and we empower people and empower the work and actually I was also empowering myself because I wanted to have a life.
Speaker:Yeah like one of my so we used to have a lot of chiefs yeah cool cool chiefs and two chief and they would be in an office away from the department so they wouldn't necessarily know if you had a really bad day as a team or what was going on Page Lily might pop in once a week and kind of they were just far removed and I know you know I've been in the leadership role myself I know you have to focus on KPIs and you have to get funding and all the other stuff that's not sexy and you know you've got to do all of that. But also like being accessible you know having those sharing like you don't have to be going in getting the whole life drama but being vulnerable in front of your team and I think we we when you know we all started probably like 30 years ago on that journey and being told you know vulnerability is a weakness but it's not like when you can show your team that you've made mistakes and that you've got over them that empowers them to be able to come to you and like so in my career especially like in medicine if people feel unsafe and they hide mistakes yeah that's more dangerous than them feeling like able to come to you and say look I think I might have done that wrong and us as a leader being able to follow it up with the patient have a look at what's happened and actually have that conversation you know that's twofold patients trust us more when we're open about and transparent about mistakes but also for our team it's so important you know it's life changing that they can come to us and say I'm really worried I think I might have done that wrong and if they didn't do it wrong it's fine but at least they've come and told you and I think as well there's also this kind of like there are some things that we all do in any any business that we're in that are black and white it's right or wrong you know there's no room for error. But then there's other things where we can experiment so like you said you built a new way of having your team working together you know it is about including people isn't it inclusiveness and just showing them that we're human instead of this kind of like I'm in charge of you got to do what I say it's having a space where people can say I always used to say to my team if I've been a knob you can tell me like you know feel free like I'm not gonna be offended like I I didn't get to the this position to get upset by what anybody thinks about me but actually I'd rather that you told me if I did something that made you feel horrible you know because I've I've got a sarcastic sense of humour like I could you know blame my dad but um there's probably occasions where I've said something that I thought was funny and no nobody upset. So saying to people like you know don't be afraid to tell me like we we've all got moments haven't we where we've done something that we could have done better better.
Speaker 2:So just to um I'm just really aware that we're uh running out of time but I did want to add one other um aspect of building sisterhood that for as long as I've been in the working world has always existed but not every organisation encourages it and that's building women's groups within companies and it's part of what we do with Wise Women Lead why we only do it as a a female or a woman's only initiative is because when women are already entering structures that are based on patriarchy not only are they usually one of the few women that are in the more senior positions they're they're working in a way that is built for the lives of men really. And so there are other safe spaces that need to be created so that women can share their very almost unique experiences and whether that is that they are the carer at home or they have done a list of 10 things before they even left the house that morning or they're getting the the phone call from the school with regards to their sick child because they always go to the mum first, all of these things and then trying to hold down a career or maybe are having um a monthly cycle and there's somewhere in there where they're maybe a bit more emotional or the perimenoples where their mind goes blank. This is a space where actually only other women can really understand and just hold space and listen and learn and grow and share together. So for any listeners that are thinking about how do we support women in our workplace either get in touch with us or um start talking to HR about maybe setting up a women in leadership forum or more or a women's forum because just that act in itself is starting to build that sisterhood that we can trust one another. But I just wanted to bring that in right at the end because it's another practical thing that you can do. But I'm gonna hand over now to Karen just to close off the podcast.
Speaker 1:What an amazing conversation and I just love it when women come together and we share from our hearts but also from our experience this is not just head work it's so much more than that. So Rachel thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your amazing experience and your wisdom with us and your real life truths as well because that's always really great for us to hear. What is the one key takeaway before we fully sign off that you want to drop into our listeners' ears right now so I had three challenges for people one was be the ally you once needed even if it feels uncomfortable for you two was get real about your own biases.
Speaker:So you know be honest with yourself because that's the first step to tearing them down. And we all have them like you said we've all struggled to get to that seat there's going to be things that we've inherently learned that we need to unlearn and then the third one is step outside your circle. So like mentor support people whose experiences differ from your own and I think you know Lucy just said about circles and asking HR for me as a kind of bold disruptive leader I'd say we don't need to ask HR's permission.
Speaker 1:Just find that group of women go and have lunch together in the park or you know go to the pub on a Friday after wherever it is but create your own circles yeah I think there's that place isn't there of like whatever you need go out there and create it and find the different doors and walk through the different doors and that could be a conversation with someone it might just be this is where we're meeting let's you know let's do it and I love that because no matter what it's about getting the right support into the right hands for women. Thank you so much for joining us today and it's a quick reminder from ours to say go check out Lisa Jedden's Menopositive podcast for inspiration and comfort for all of you entering this different phase of life and thank you so much for listening and tuning in to say it sister. If you love this episode don't forget to subscribe leave a review and share it with your work bestie.
Speaker 2:Until next time keep saying it sister that's it for this episode of Say It Sister. If it moved you and made you think or made you feel sane hit follow. Share it with a sister and leave us a review.
Speaker 1:And remember your voice has power and your essence is wisdom. So speak your truth and live a true and empowered life until next time say it sister
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