Leading Through Crisis With Emma Streets

We sit down with crisis comms expert Emma Streets to unpack why old communication playbooks fail during rolling crises and how a trauma‑informed approach helps leaders speak clearly, act with integrity, and build real trust. We share practical tools for safety, trust, and choice that calm nervous systems and reduce risk in workplaces and at home.

• defining trauma and its everyday signals in teams
• why language, tone, and visuals shape felt safety
• apologies without liability and legal myths
• predictive and vulnerability-based trust explained
• performative statements vs action-led credibility
• giving choice in format, timing, and channels
• managing uncertainty without fuelling rumour
• resilience as reflection, learning, and systems
• collaboration and feminine leadership strengths
• practical steps leaders can apply today

Ellen Griley article Trauma Informed Framework Inspired this Episode.

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Transcript

Setting The Stage: Crisis Everywhere

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey sisters, Lucy Barker's here with Karen Harris Kelly, and we are back with another episode of the Say It Sister Podcast. It is the podcast where we talk about all things womanhood, the topics we talk about in private, and often the confusing, chaotic, mind-blowing, and body-changing messy middle years. And in this vast, chaotic, crisis after crisis times that we are living in.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

We always have honest, heartfelt conversations as friends first and bringing in our own personal experiences using our professional strengths. And as always, we welcome you into the fold. And this week we welcome back a former guest, a dear friend, Emma Streets, because she's brilliant and the conversation is very much needed.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Nice to see you again.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Hi both. Thank you so much for having me back. I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Well, yes, today we're talking about something that feels very now, and it was prompted by you. Um, and it's something that feels very human. Why what worked for us before just doesn't seem to be working anymore. You know, it's like the playbooks of old and all the old Trisis or communications books, they were written for a different time.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Emma sent us this brilliant, brilliant article. So we're loosely basing this conversation on that. And it's by Ellen Grilley, founder of Equilibrious Communications, who works in a trauma-informed way in the way that she communicates. And it really, really hit us and it really brought home to us just how much is going on in the world right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah, so as we go about our daily lives, we're all aware of the world's troubles with the constant threats of war and uh politics that mean our children are being taken from their schools, and protests that protesters are being executed, and even on our own shores here in the UK, um, you know, there are teens using knives on our children, and movements come out of nowhere, outrage and scandals pop up overnight, and so we're living through, you know, crisis after crisis, and that's why we've asked Emma to come on, you know, she is a crisis communications expert, and we had a great conversation last year. So if you haven't heard, go and listen to that. We we actually made it into a double parter. Um, but we really need Emma to help calm our nervous systems and give us some, you know, some tools that we can add to our life kit.

Why Old Playbooks Don’t Work

SPEAKER_01 2:36

And really, we need to talk about trauma. We all need to be talking about trauma because if you're living in the world and you're not seeing trauma spilling out onto the streets, if you're not, you know, realizing that people are feeling trauma in your boardrooms, then you've not been present in the world. And we really want to talk about how a trauma-informed approach can guide uh not just internal communications, but also leaders who need to step out and lead for us when the world feels unsafe and unpredictable, instead of just pretending that it's business as usual. I want to say with a massive loud yell, please, no more elephants in the room. Let's really, really get into this. It's a really important topic.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

So before we go into the actual topic though, I just want to invite Emma to share some very exciting, very good news. Because Emma, you've done something awesome and brave and exciting, and you're leading your own company. So, firstly, congratulations, and secondly, tell us all about it.

Emma’s New Consultancy And Focus

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Thank you so much. Yes, I mean I feel like to be honest, it's been a long time coming. I think um I had these kind of thoughts about going out on my own for a while, and really last summer kind of crystallized it because that's when I realised I'd been doing this work for 20 years in PR and communications, and I kind of thought, gosh, if I don't do this now, I don't really what am I waiting for? The next 10 years, I'm only gonna get to get older and wiser, um, but also slightly potentially less energetic. So it felt like the time was now to create my own consultancy, and yeah, I'm specialising in reputation management and crisis, um, and it just felt like you know, in terms of what you're saying with the bigger picture context, it is is really needed at this point, unfortunately. It does feel like every other week there's a crisis, or actually every week, if we're being honest. Um, and I think taking more of a kind of solo role in that allows me to not only kind of help people that I already know, but branch out to new sectors and take a slightly different approach. And a lot of what I think about personally is this trauma-informed approach, and that certainly guides my own experiences, and that definitely plays a role in how I advise other people.

Living With Collective Trauma

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah, and let's create a bit of context to bring us back into the real world as well. So in Minneapolis, Oregon before that, the schools are closing and children are back to learning from home. Employees are questioning whether it's even safe to go to work, and teams are dusting off emergency response plans. It's that horrible feeling, almost like the pandemic flashback. And I think in our own country, even we've got women or immigrants travelling to work in our own country and feeling unsafe. So trauma is all around us. And as a coach who is trauma-informed, and a woman who's lived through my own tsunami of trauma, I've learned a lot about what happens on the inside. And if something can happen once, then it can happen again. And I think we're all living in this state of almost like unlocked um could be fear or trauma, that something bad could be just around the corner for us in our own immediate lives. Um and I just wanted to throw that, you know, out to the to the space to just get your views.

Media Narratives And Stigma Around Trauma

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Yeah, I mean, for me, I I have a friend in Minneapolis actually at the moment, and the conversations that we have are really um fascinating just in terms of how the media's reporting what's happening there. What I see here, she's always really interested in knowing what's being reported over here versus what she's obviously experiencing in her daily life, and they are different, um, as obviously they would be, but they are they are quite different just in terms of what's happening. I think, first of all, I think the word trauma and trauma-informed has a stigma to it because I think it often gets parked as something that is, and I hate this phrase, a soft skill. I'm doing air quotes with my hands. Um, because I actually think this is absolutely one of the most difficult skills. It's often really only achieved by going through your own trauma and being willing to really experience that and live through that and learn from it. Um, and I think it's so important now, but I think a lot of people shy away still from trauma-informed and those sort that sort of language because I don't think they understand it, and I think it presents a problem for a lot of people when the reality is, you know, we are living through a very traumatic time as a global collective. Of course, that's going to then impact people's behaviours, and if you kind of rise above it to that layer, it's all psychology, all crises come down to people, human behaviours and psychology. And I think somewhere along the way we've kind of badged that as something that's a bit more, you know, out there and something that's kind of got this stigma attached that I think is really unhelpful because actually at the moment the most helpful thing we can do is be really aware of that and lean into it.

Community Stories And Daily Micro-Traumas

SPEAKER_00 7:36

I just wanted to share about something that happened um last year uh in the area that I lived in, and my city was one of the first to uh really raise the flags, and it was like a tsunami of flags that were going up. And I joined um a Facebook group which was um basically Worcestershire Against Hate because I was so triggered and yeah, it was like mini traumas happening every day. Every time I would see these flags being raised, and it just brought up so many feelings and thoughts. And then through reading some of the um the other posters' comments, it was things like you know, um uh care workers who were often from um marginalized groups were going into these areas, knocking on doors to go and whether it was, you know, being um yeah, a carer or um a midwife, etc. Um, and they had no idea what was going to be on the other side of the door, whether they'd be welcomed, whether walking down the street in their uniform, whether they'd be attacked or harassed. It was it was really traumatic. And then one of the um women said that she has to walk her child to school on a road which was covered in these flags, and she was like absolutely petrified, and she knew she was going to be passing that on to her children, and then she had to go and do a full-time job, and they're the kind of mini um examples that impacted my life in my community, and it's so important that I was able to recognise it in myself, but also that the employers of this woman would give her some some leeway or just let her have a take a breath or talk to her or adapt because she's just had a really traumatic moment, and that was every day, Monday to Friday, dropping off and picking up her uh child. Is that the kind of thing you're talking to?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, I think it's just having that awareness as and responsibility as an employer, as a business owner, and just getting comfortable with potentially being uncomfortable. These are really uncomfortable times for everyone. I think there's a balance. I think you know, there's there's an element of business as usual and wanting to continue building a business and momentum, but you have to understand that you're dealing with people and people are unpredictable, people are humans, and I think this is the bit that people get stuck on because they're kind of stuck between the old way of, as you say, the kind of old school, you know, stiff of a lip, let's just all carry on and pretend nothing's happening, versus you know, not being able to function and build resilience. And I think resilience is a massive topic, and again, one that I don't think people necessarily fully understand, and something that I deliver in my training courses is about building resilience, not just within crisis, but the best time to build resilience is when you're not in a crisis situation, when you're not living that fight or flight. Um, and I think people have a lot of misconceptions about what resilience is. Going through something traumatic does not automatically make you resilient. You have to take the lessons, have some time processing what's happened, what does that mean, and then adapt accordingly so that you're bringing that into a positive experience. That to me is building resilience. So I think you know, there's a whole kind of spectrum of emotions attached to this topic. But from a practical point of view, resilience is, you know, a huge priority.

Resilience: Misconceptions And Real Skills

Defining Trauma And Somatic Signals

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Yeah, I mean, it's taking me into that, you know, actually packing, unpacking what trauma informed actually means. Because the world change, you know, when we had COVID, it basically unlocked a load of trauma for people. So when there is some sort of global incident, something like a pandemic which infected infected and impacted every single person, um, we all had to live through that and it changed the way that we lived and it also unlocked people's trauma. And so mental health went through the roof because people felt, you know, like and and sometimes it was like, wow, where's this all coming from? And what often happens, the work that I've learned through my own journey and through working with um experts as well, and then through doing the training, is that we can hold a lot of trauma in our bodies, and the first time something happens, we're like, okay. The second time it happens, it's like, oh, this is our this is a second time. If there's a potential opportunity for a third occasion or for something to happen, we we respond from a trauma, a trauma, traumatic place. And so what we've got to realise is that people have already got things that have happened to them in their own life that they've probably suppressed and they're probably managing their everyday lives really, really well, um, you know, performing really well. It's not actually they've not the trauma has not actually come out yet. But the more things that keep happening, the more people are likely to actually then be like, I actually can't cope. Um and that's when the trauma starts to spill out. So, you know, in terms of like an actual definition, there is a definition here which I'm gonna read out. Faith G. Harper describes trauma as an event that happens outside our understanding of how the world is supposed to work. As someone who had PTSD, um, you know, as well, I really understand and I really sense when there's trauma in the room because there are a couple of things that I notice and look for. So when things start to speed up, when things go really fast or people are starting to get a little bit jerky, um, you know, you can might see it in their facial expressions, or if there's like a shrillness to their voice, you know, and it is typically that fight, flight freeze, um, it could be fall asleep, but it's like they're trying to get out of somewhere really quick, they don't feel like they've got control, but there is definitely something in the voice that for me is uh, you know, and also in my own voice, you know, I notice it and I go, Oh, I'm having a trauma. I'm I'm responding from my trauma here. I'm not responding from my true power. Um, I know how to reset myself quite quickly and come back into like the grounded position and get back into the room. But if I didn't have that awareness and I hadn't done the training and I wasn't able to spot it, you know, that actually scares me more than having all the tools and having the experiences. Um, because I feel like what you're saying is when we have resilience, it's because we know that we've had these experiences, but we know what to do and we know how to overcome it, and we know how to find a safe place or make ourselves safe in that moment to go away and do the you know the deeper work that's needed. It's a lot there from me, but I just wanted to sort of throw that back out.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah, and I think that's another thing to remember about, you know, now imagine that you're not trauma-informed and you're running a massive organization, you're ultimately responsible for thousands of people. How much pressure and how safe would you feel in your decision-making quality, for example? And obviously, decisions aren't made in isolation by one individual in these sorts of incidents, you have a board of people around you and you have sounding board, and that's what people like me are there to do is to support decision making when it's critical in an incident or an issue. But again, if you don't have that basic knowledge and understanding of what trauma-informed means and just that awareness that the people that you're dealing with are going to be potentially really unpredictable in a load of different ways, all of a sudden it just feels so much more difficult to make a sound decision. So, this is why it's so important that we realise that everyone needs to have this skill, um, and particularly the people that are in positions of power and leadership.

Leadership Under Pressure And Decision Safety

SPEAKER_00 15:17

It's really interesting how a lot of the um the mistrust or disconnection that people are feeling at the moment with their workplaces, um, is actually very linked to everything that we're we're saying. Because whether it was Black Lives Matter, whether it's the Me Too movement, uh, whether it's what's happening at the moment in politics, um every single one of us, unless you're living in a complete anti-social media bubble, every single one of us is very aware of things that are happening in the world. And uh when we go into our workplaces and it's almost like we're being gaslit, that that doesn't matter. We don't talk about that, we don't address that. Um it rather than building connections and saying you're safe here, you're safe with us, um, it actually makes people feel less safe. And that kind of brings me on to something that um the article that you shared uh brought to us, which was about you know these principles in practice about things that we can do. I can't remember, was it six principles, I think? Um, and I just wondered whether you would feel comfortable, Emma, taking us through each one of those principles one by one. Karen and I'll interject with some maybe personal stories or something. Um, but yeah, is that okay if you do that just so that we can really understand what it looks like in practice?

Workplace Mistrust And Silence

Principle One: Safety In Words And Visuals

SPEAKER_02 16:45

And the first one was safety, so yes, and I think you know there are six, but I think there were three in particular that were were kind of the the key ones. So safety. So, first of all, you know, in the context of communications, what do we mean by safety? It depends on the incident. Obviously, if you're talking about a global disaster, then safety takes on a very different dimension. But in the context of a more corporate um communications or situation, it's looking at, you know, what are you saying to your internal teams? In what tone are you using, specifically your word choice and language? And I think this is something that feels so obvious, but yet so many people still fall at this hurdle looking at, you know, are you using really aggressive language in a sort of corporate speak way that might trigger someone or might have a negative connotation? Particularly when you're writing a response for external audiences, that goes into a whole other level because you have to really agonize over your word choice when you're putting together a really brief, succinct statement. It cannot afford to have double meanings, anything that could be misinterpreted. It is very much down to linguistics and can you give us an example? Um, so I think well, the the example that I come up against often is people really loath to apologise because obviously it scares all the lawyers and they think that means admitting liability to something when you can still apologize for something without admitting liability. So again, it's choosing your words to say, I'm sorry that you feel this way, I'm sorry that this has happened. It doesn't mean you're saying you are responsible. If you are responsible, that's a different conversation. But I think people can often still feel quite scared to be seen to be apologizing. Um, you then have brands that go the other way and go all in on the apology letter, which again, if it's a bit disingenuous, doesn't always land well either. So it's about being true to you. So I think that's the kind of the safety element in terms of as well the visuals that you're using. So look at what images you're using on your internal communications. I think the brilliant example is um that you've got in here is about mental health, and then you you see this picture of someone with their head in their hands at their desk, or and you think, gosh, that is not how mental health is reflected in daily life. Um a lot of people walk around with zero evidence of having mental health issues or you know, going through a hard time. That's that's not reflective, and that's also just can be seen as quite inauthentic and very much kind of oh, it's the corporate stock image. So, again, it's taking into account all of the different elements of your communication. And then to the point that you mentioned earlier, Lucy, about um person feeling safe to go in walk into work. Physically, is it better sometimes that people are allowed more flexibility to work from home when certain things are happening in the news or in their local area? It's just being aware of that and considering safety really in all those different areas of the workplace.

Apologies, Liability, And Clear Language

SPEAKER_01 19:52

And I just want to wide in about the language piece because this comes up all the time for me. I mean, I'm an ex-communications expert as well, and the obsession with words is in my work all the time. And I create I almost create like word codes with clients and the words that they want to use, because I'm really aware that if I use a word and it's not a word that um they like, it's gonna have a ripple effect on the inside of them. And my job here is to hold space, support them, empower them in different ways, equip them for everyday life, and it goes on and on and on, um, and support them through difficult times sometimes. And I feel like I've got to be so, so, so, so careful. So you can do that on a one-on-one, but sometimes as well, you know, a client will come and say, Well, it's bearable. And for me, that's like, you know, that is like the alarm bell that goes off on the inside that said that I go, Ooh, bearable doesn't sound like it doesn't sound good to me. Like what's going on with the bearable? Because bearable can very quickly become unbearable. And unless the right spaces, the right conversations are happening, you know, and things can be um almost like detected early enough, then you've got, you know, potentially, you know, a lot of people out there living a bearable existence, um, just about getting by, you know, and at some point that will hit, that trauma breaking point will hit. Um, and then there is a response from that. So I think there is a lot here that is really, really important in terms of the education for leaders, for managers, for organizations to say, you know, uh these are the words you need to be watching out for. And this is the work that needs to be put in place so that that there is that wider awareness and that education, because I think there's just so much that isn't known still.

Performative Support And Culture Clashes

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah. And I do I would say I think this can also go too far the other way. So whilst this isn't in any way a replacement for a proper thought through strategy, there's definitely a quick kind of gut check question list that you can run through uh when you're looking at you know, inside an organization about do we take a position on this issue that's happening? Do we comment? I mean, we all saw how many clangers there were and faux pas around the movements like. Black Lives Matter, me too, brands piling in when really they had absolutely no, you know, real connection, and it just really massively backfired because again, you know, there's one thing supporting something that you're passionate about, but you've got to be doing it from a place of alignment because people just see through it, and it just feels really, really wrong. So I think the fine line is around you know, just questioning yourself, you know, why why do we want to comment on this issue? What happens if I don't comment? Is anyone gonna care?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

You know, I have to bring in one of my biggest bugbears, um, and it's the um the International Women's Day, um, that obviously we love to bring focus to every year, and then you've got them who uh because there's actually two, one's a brand name and one's actually the UN Um International Women's Day, which is the one that I support, but most of it just became a bit of a cliche, so people are just bringing cupcakes and things like that on the day, or wear pink, which again is uh just a bit of a cliche, but then actually there's no women on the board or in the senior roles, um, and then they use language which is all really, really harsh, or like make it feel like a battle battleground, even you know, things like you know, rally the troops and kill the project, you know, pull the trigger on that one, and it's just like oh my god, you know, on one side just think oh pink fluffy, let's embrace it. And on the other side, you're actually showing exactly what your culture is, and those words that you're using absolutely tell us who you are. Um, and so I just wanted to just put that one because I know that by the time this episode releases, you're gonna start seeing lots of cupcakes and pink emblems all over your feed. But why don't you take us on to the second one of those priorities?

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Yes, so the trustworthiness point. So I guess this also connects on to the last point, just in terms of what you said then, Lucy, about actions, and that's a theme that we'll keep coming back to, which is do my actions, you know, reflect my organization and also do my words reflect my actions because it's always more important in terms of what you do rather than what you say. And I think again, this kind of context and sense-checking things it always comes back to what am I actually doing about this issue? And if the answer is nothing, then I would really consider again why you want to be seen to be publicly trying to comment on something. Um, so trustworthiness is a really, really interesting topic, it's a word that is used so frequently. Um, I think it has lost some of its meaning because I think people just you know sort of bandy it around in all sorts of contexts, and to me, trust is transparency, consistency, empathy. Um, these are the conditions that trust thrives in. I think if you don't have all of those elements together, you have a lack of trust or a risk of a lack of trust. Um, so Karen, did you want to talk about the kind of trust landscape in terms of the workplace as well?

Predictive Vs Vulnerability-Based Trust

SPEAKER_01 25:03

I I feel like we are all suspicious. I think we've become even more suspicious, purely because we're not sure what we're seeing, if it's real or not. And you know, like sometimes I'll see like the marching images, but I've seen the same marching images um used several times over and over and over again every year, you know, on social media. And so I go, I love seeing women marching, it gives me a sense of hope. But I'm like, they're like this is happening right now in you know all these different countries, and I'm like, well, actually, that's really old footage. So I think we've already got a high index of suspiciousness that we're all living through. And then if we go into the into an organization and we're not walking the talk, because I feel like you know, if if the company's empowering women yet there's no women on the board, that for me is like a red flag. Um, I always look at, you know, like when I'm when I'm um looking at businesses, I'll always go on and and like go, how many women have they got on the board? And I'll do that kind of thing. And I won't necessarily say, I see you've got three women on the board, but I am looking at that because I'm trying to see how far up this, you know, how far up the empowerment truly goes. I've fallen out of love with the word empowerment. I've always done empowerment work from being in my twenties. Um it makes me a little bit sad, but I feel like again, a little bit like trust, it's a word that is being overused, and actually, they're not it's not truly empowering women. Um, I feel like that's becoming a disservice. So I think we're sitting in this space now where we're all sort of trying to call out what's real and what's true. Like, can the real person stand up so we can see you so that we can go like I said to somebody last week at a meeting and I said, I love this, I'm sitting opposite you, we're both looking into each other's eyes, I see the whites of your eyes, you see the whites of my eyes, um, and we're having a really brilliant conversation that's completely transparent and truthful. Um, you know, that for me is is what we should all be aiming to do because without that we're all gonna keep sort of like walking around on you know, eggshells. I always get the feeling of eggshells. It's like, oh I'm not sure, should I reveal, should I not reveal? Um, so I think this is a check out, a check-in, check-out almost like energy that we have as individuals when we're doing work, as a coach, I get to see people, I get to see that generally, it's not many people haven't seen the real self. So I get so I'm very privileged that I get to see the real person, and my clients will say, if I'm not honest with you, then there's really no point. Um so I know that I'm in a very, very, very lucky seat. Um, you know, and then we've got to do the work so that they can show that to the world and feel safe enough doing that, because when we are truly authentic, it comes with some risks and passion.

Context, Timing, And Authenticity

SPEAKER_00 27:47

So what I would say because I absolutely agree with both of you, and you're both right, but um, through the work that I've been doing with teams and leaders for God knows how long, we talk about the two different kinds of trust, and I think you've both explained that really well. That there's you've got what we call predictive trust, which is the one that is like I've seen it many times before that you're always the first of the meeting and you'll always have got the notes ready, uh, or you're the one who will come flustering in and apologise, and uh, you're the one that'll always put your hand up first. So there is a predictability where we think I know how this company shows up, how that leader behaves, I feel safe around them because there is some consistency. So that is a little bit of that like walk the talk, say what you're gonna do, and keep doing it. And then the other side of it is, and which is st equally as important, is what we call vulnerability-based trust, which is this is the real me. Now it's not for a leader to say, you know, this is my deepest, darkest secret, but it's being able to say, I'm not very good at that, or I don't have the answers right now, or I've never done this before, I'm a little bit nervous. It's about just giving that that vulnerability just to say, this is the real me. And that also creates safety because then the other people around you will then get a little bit of vulnerability-based trust around you and say, Okay, it's safe here to say I'm worried, I'm scared, I'm excited, I'm passionate, um, rather than feeling unsafe and hiding it behind those masks. Yeah. So I just wanted to point that out because you both came at you know, textbook, brilliant, and actually I'm just gonna align them together. We need both. Yeah, we do.

AI, Misinformation, And Reputation

SPEAKER_01 29:31

And I just want to add in there that there's something about the context that we're working with that we need to understand context because I'm not going to be um truly authentic if I don't get the context. I need to understand the context of the work, the context of what's going on. Um, when is it when is it right for me to show up and be um authentic and and you know build that trust? And when do I actually need to be quiet and actually step back? Because I feel like that's important because it's something that we all need to learn as leaders. Like we have to know the context of what we're doing. Um, because if we just start talking about trauma um, you know, openly, willy-nilly, and there's no kind of context for it, then that can feel really, really strange for people as well, and that can actually reduce trust. So that I just wanted to throw that another thing into the um the soup that we're building here today.

Principle Three: Choice And Agency

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah, I think trust is two-way, and I think there are certain circumstances where actually what you were saying earlier, Karen, made me think I need to say this that you know, please don't trust everything that you see because obviously the amount of misinformation, fake content, you know, it's a very real thing, it's not a futuristic thing in 10 years' time. It's happening now, you know, the amount of AI-generated content um that is completely untrue, is creating a whole new industry in itself of people that are working to correct that, um, and you know, whole new specialisms around you know, copyright and all sorts of things that are coming up off the back of that. So it's definitely not saying trust everything, but I think it's that duality of two things can exist, so you can be suspicious of people, but you can want to trust them. And I think when you feel safe, it's really powerful then to be able to feel like you can open up, and that does you know lead to more trust if you can be vulnerable with people, but very much so at the right time and in the right ways and in the right formats as well. Um, I mean, I would say the obvious thing to undo trust in terms of a brand is to just don't do what you say you'll do. So look at any brand with poor customer service, they frequently appear top of the least trusted brands. If you're looking at trusted brands, a great example in the UK is Marts and Spencer's. Everyone loves that brand. They had a massive issue last year that I talked about at length in kind of different comment pieces and things on social media about their cyber incident that they had that dragged on for months and months and months, but ultimately they were still profitable, you know, commercially, and you know, they they experienced that, and I think people did have a level of sympathy for them because they trusted that brand, and that reputation has been built over you know decades and decades.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

So, why don't you take us on to your third priority?

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Yes, so this is choice. So, looking at how do you again not to use the word empower because we don't like that word now? Well, we love it, other people just have made it dull.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

I like the idea, but I'm sick of people cheaply using it.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Yeah. So, how do you kind of make people feel like they have more control in a situation? Um, and that is giving them a choice about how they maybe consume their communication, they consume their updates, particularly when you're looking at in internal to a business. You know, we've got so many different options available now to communicate. It's not a case of oh, we're having a team meeting, everyone gather around in in the boardroom, which it used to be. Now it's is it a Teams call, is it an email? Um, you know, what format is it and what is accessible? And you know, in terms of delivering updates and internal communications, that's a huge decision point, and that's something that's really important to look at. And every organization is different in the way that they do that, but even enabling people to say, you know, we need to deliver you an update, you know, you can either join this meeting, or if not, don't worry, we'll send you an email with the details. And some people might not want that direct contact, so it's just being aware of that. I mean, within that, there are obviously structures, and you know, if you do have certain hierarchies of people that need to be told information a certain way, that's you overlay that. But even just having that thought process of how is this information best going to be received, is something that again I don't think is a necessarily a given in the more traditional style of of comms.

Bad Comms, Uncertainty, And Stress Spirals

SPEAKER_01 33:51

I I this is a personal one really, but um so my husband last year we didn't know he was gonna have a job for the whole year, and honestly, the amount of communications that were going round, but actually without saying anything. So he was coming up, I mean it must have been every month saying, Oh, we've got a c we've got a call at this time, we've all got to be on it, this, that, and the other. Um, you know, so he'd go and do the call, he'd come back, he's like, I I'm none the wiser. Um, and this went on for an entire year, and it was really, really stressful because we were like I was like, I can't hear about it anymore because until we know we don't know what we're working with, um really badly managed. I mean, he's still got his job, um, the company's now, he's gone, you know, he's been bought out and it's he's been rebranded and this, that and the other, and he's still got his job. But the whole thing was just painful, and actually, you know, it it it in terms of a trauma response, you know, it was going on for such a long space in time, but it was definitely definitely impacted both our you know well-being on the inside for sure, but we m we were able to manage that one, um, because we were like, come on, we'll just take it one step at a time, and you know, so we would we were still talking and then we'll be like, Well, let's not talk about it for a while, then we talk about it again. So it was a really, really weird one, but for me that was just a really bad way, a bad example of having meetings with actually nothing to say and putting people through um unnecessary stress.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

I think that that causes almost a trauma in itself when you're living through that those because there's no safety and there's no trustworthiness there, and you're longing for answers or just something, so that actually then you can have some choice. And I always come back to the circle of influence, circle of control. And I think when you are given mixed messages or absolutely nothing, um, or too much, um, what's going to happen is your mind is just going to just go into what if this, what if that? And it's always on the worst side of what ifs, never like what if it's brilliant. Um, and so we then start going into this this spiral. And I think that the in that trauma response, or just in everyday life, actually it's just thinking, right, stop. What is it that I actually can control, or what what agency do I have? And sometimes it might be that actually I don't want to hear about that latest call or I want it via email so I can read it while when I feel safe in a or I've got my people around me. Um, and I think that is it's absolutely spot on that you said that this needs to be a top priority, Emma, because if you are told you are going to be summoned to this meeting and it's going to be done in this building at etc, etc., that's already taken away the choice of somebody who's having a really negative response to something.

Brand Risk, Integrity, And People

SPEAKER_02 36:42

And that's also a massive risk for me, is it, you know, again, taking that step back and thinking, hang on, we're potentially going to have a lot of very disgruntled employees in one room with access to social media, for example, that is not how you would want that narrative to play out as a brand externally either. You, you know, and that's not sounding very kind of corporate, but ultimately that is what it is about, is protecting your brand's reputation. So, yes, you do things from a place of what is best for my people, but obviously also because you want to protect your own brand and do what's best. So that's where the integrity element comes in, really. Um, but it is also a massive risk. People are at the heart of every single crisis, everything that happens comes down to human decisions, human emotion. Um, and that's why I'm really passionate about the fact that, like I said at the beginning, it's not this isn't a soft, fluffy topic. This is, you know, decisions and and understanding the thinking process that will directly impact your bottom line if that's how we want to talk about it in a boardroom. That is the reality. So I think it's merging these two worlds together, um, which is the point that it feels like we're at now.

Language Traps And Framing

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Yeah, and and I mean, obviously, there's a space of compassion. I mean, and and I don't see think compassion's a soft skill either, by the way. Um, it's a business critical scale, you know, that we are compassionate, and then also something about tolerance to be you know tolerant towards each other and to be nice to each other. It it seems like it seems old-fashioned at the moment to be able to talk about this stuff, but it's so so important. And you know, my husband said in the first presentation they did the word redundancies was in like blocks um across the top, and he said he had like a physical reaction to that, and he and he said, he said, he said, she said, Oh no, there is and it and it was like she said then there were going to be no redundancies, and it was like because they'd all been living in fear of redundancy for a year, that's all they saw. And he said, Can I just put my hand up? Can you just say that again? Is it you're saying that there's going to be no redundancies? He said, Because I've been worried about my job for a year, and she looked really surprised, the woman in HR, and was like, Oh, oh right. And I just thought, when he came back and told me, because he had a trauma-based response in his body, I was like, I can't believe how badly managed that was, you know, like that that wouldn't have been thought through that you'd put something in blocks like that. So um, you know, there is a rip ripple effect in everything we do, and we can have a positive ripple out there, and we can handle things in a you know, an effective way, or we can have a negative ripple effect. And I know this sounds soft, but it really isn't, is my point.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

I had um a coaching call this morning, and um and there's some significant information about a decision that may or may not ha need to be had later on in the year, and I s I asked the um the client, do you do you trust or is it safe to share this the information you know with your top tier team right now? And he just took a moment and he said, actually, there's one or two that I can trust, but I can't trust everybody with this information in this format. And I and you know, then obviously we carried on coaching, but I think that is really important to take that moment to say, is this information going to cause more chaos, more crisis, more trauma? Um, or should we just sit on it just for another day while we we think about this and then create some choices? So I think that's a really good, you know, because somebody would have looked at those slides and said, you know, um, actually, is this the right approach? Maybe they didn't, maybe they were just all being triggered themselves and they just wanted to get things out, who knows? But I think it's just that moment of just slow down and just ask the question is this is this the right way, is this the right approach? And if all else fails and you don't know, give Emma a call.

Collaboration And Feminine Leadership

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yeah. I mean, I think that is a classic example again of something that I've talked about in media training, where if you know if you get put on the spot with a difficult question and the journalist uses a really negative word, don't you don't reply and use the same word. So if someone says, Oh, this has been a bit of a disaster, hasn't it? You don't reply and say, No, it no, it's not been a disaster, because you don't know how that's going to be cut, you don't know the context, and it's exactly the same thing for written documents. It is again comes back to the power of the language that you're using. If you go out with a job statement saying all jobs have been um saved, that language is very powerful. If you say actually all jobs have been protected, that's a totally different tone, it conveys the same meaning, so it does very much come down to word choice, and I think we've kind of um then sort of looped in the remaining principles really from this framework around context, so understanding that um certain people might be affected in certain ways and the need for collaboration as well, really. And I think that's really interesting in terms of being a more novel approach to this sort of framework because particularly if we're looking at trying to get more empower more women to be leaders, you know, women communicate very differently to men, and um, I think just that theme of collaboration and communicating as a group, that's something that is much more of a female based or feminine side skill. Um, that again can often having that element can often reduce the risk of of some of these issues that we've seen play out.

Practical Takeaways For Leaders

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Say it, sister. I needed to land that there. Say it, sister. And the thing is, you know, obviously, you know, Karen and I are all about the the bringing more feminine or balanced women's leadership into our world. And I think this is the stage where at you know, the world that we're living in, where part of the crisis we're in is that we aren't bringing in the women's skills and strengths and their voices. And to be clear, you know, you've named some of them, but you know, they are the ones that are like listening, holding space, reading the room, having that natural empathy, um, gathering the support of people and working in collaboration and in community. These these are the women's way. And if we don't have women in the spaces in the leadership teams, then you will continue to see the masculine way, which is push, drive, compete, um force through. Hello, Ernie's come to join us for this the the puppy. I don't know how he got, but he did. Well, I I've trapped mine in the other room, so they're all safe. Well, Karen's having that moment. Um, yeah, so I just wanted to reiterate that's everything that uh we do through Wise Women Lead and why we have this podcast. Um, but I'm really aware of the timing, so we are going to bring this conversation to a close. So I just wanted to hand back over to you, Emma, to really land the really important messages that you want everyone to know, but particularly the people you work with and the clients.

Relationships At The Core

SPEAKER_02 43:53

Yeah, I mean, I think there are some very kind of practical points as well. I know we've kind of talked a lot about, you know, we've covered a lot of In terms of theories and lots of kind of anecdotes, so we've we've covered a lot, but I think in terms of practical tips, I think honestly, if you're working in a in a business, you need to really listen to what your people are really thinking and worrying about right now. I know people do surveys, okay? Everyone does an employee survey, everyone has different ways of doing it, but just be honest about that and really reflect on. Do you think your people feel safe to share their honest views with you? And is there a way that you could make that process even two percent more comfortable for them? Because that's going to improve the quality of the feedback that you get, and that is what you're basing your decisions on, is just really being aware of what is happening within your organization, because this is the root of where long-standing issues take hold, is within your team, and that is often, as I've said, what triggers a crisis moment. And then, secondly, I'd also just be we've talked about this point a lot, but be really aware of are your actions matching what you're saying that you're doing because it's so easy to put out a mission statement, to make a big statement on you know, social or at an event, or in even in the press, and still use that as a channel to announce something that you're delivering, but is that reflected back in your culture and what practical actions are you taking that you can point to to back that up as real tangible evidence? Because the days of marketing your way out of a negative situation are done. You know, we're looking at so many different channels now that you're communicating across. Um, there was a brilliant article by Mark Bukowski, who's a PR guru, about your reputation is what the system remembers now, and the system being obviously AEO, geo, um, online life, you know, that is defining people's reputations now with the amount of content. So if you're then able to go beyond that and back that up with evidence, you're gonna have a better chance of winning that battle. So it's just the classic crisis rule of what you do is more important than what you say.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

I think there's something as well about leaders, like the best leaders that I know are the ones that understand that that the core of everything is the relationship and the relationships that are held, and that's where I see the most innovative work happening, that's where I see the teams that are thriving the most because they understand that it comes down to relationship and building and investing in that relationship. So, yeah, that's a core thing, and I think if we are gonna walk the talk and we're talking about you know things like trust and empowerment, um, then that needs to be all the way through the line and that needs to be invested through the relationship. So that was my um final thing to add in there.

Applying The Framework At Home

Closing: New Human-Centred Playbooks

SPEAKER_00 46:46

I just wanted to say everything that you were saying um there, Emma, in your like your key takeaways can actually be um applied to the family systems as well. Um and so even if you aren't working in a corporate or a business, uh, but the most important relationships that are getting close to crisis um are your family. Listen to Emma's wise words and look at it through the lens of yeah, you and your personal life. But I just want to say a massive thank you to Emma Streets for bringing your crisis comms wisdom back to us again, um, and to Ellen Greeley, whose article Trauma Informed Framework Inspired This Episode. Um, we'll link both in the the show notes and on our socials.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

That's all we've got time for today, but this conversation will definitely continue. Our old playbooks weren't built for this moment, and that's exactly why we need new, more human ones. Thank you so much for listening.