Who Gets Blamed For Lonely Men

We challenge the blame placed on women for male loneliness and declining birth rates, and we map practical ways to build safer homes, better policies, and stronger role models. From South Korea’s 4B to UK school funding, we trace how systems shape choices and how families can lead change.

• the media narrative around male loneliness and state “solutions”
• fertility politics, from 4B to Roe and egg-freezing offers
• fear tactics versus women’s agency and bodily autonomy
• the dating mismatch and readiness gap between men and women
• costs of living, childcare, leave, and work design as core barriers
• the isolation and invisible labour of motherhood
• role modelling, consent education, and emotionally present fathers
• building matriarchal-led, co-created homes with clear boundaries
• practical household prototypes that scale to community change
• calling men in as guardians who protect and respect

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Transcript

Framing The Debate

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome back to Say Assist with Cameron Harris Kelly and Lucy Blackers. Every week we have filtered, challenging conversations that women are already having everywhere. From the schoolroom to late night WhatsApps. Our heartfelt conversations always come back to the essence of wise women leading. Leading from a place of understanding, personal experience, and solutions that impact us all. So today we've got a huge topic. We're talking about the so-called male loneliness epidemic. And how blame is often pushed onto women. And we're asking why some people think that lonely men should be helped to pass on their genes. Not a conversation that any woman will be having, by the way. You must have seen or heard about the Stephen Bartlett Diary of a CEO episode. That really talks about whether the state should interfere. But it didn't end there. His end-of-year episode with podcaster Chris Williamson, in which the pair discussed declining birth rates. They circled women's independence, access to contraception, and changing social expectations to explain why fewer people are having children. The theme was basically blaming women for anti-family attitudes.

Policy Shock And Fertility Politics

Autonomy, Agency, And Fear Tactics

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Oh, isn't this always the way, you know, when um something's going on in the world that affects men, rather than them saying, oh look, we've got a problem, how are we going to help our brothers out, or is there something that I'm doing? They start to look for something that they can fix because it's the man's way. They've been developed to fix things, but it's so tedious because it always lands on somebody else, and often the woman's um it's their fault. And you know, again, in the last week or so, um, we've had the reform bunch coming out because obviously there's lots of by-elections. Um, well, some of their policies and their thoughts, they're shockers, honestly. And Matt Goodwin, he's the one who is um out as a candidate at the moment. Well, a couple of years ago, he came out with his thoughts that I know, let's tax the people who haven't got children uh to get the birth rate up. Um, and you know, it's just ridiculous because tax has never been a reason why people have or do not have children. And so we've got to be really honest about this. Everywhere you look around the world, it it is about fertility politics. It's things to get headlines, they're almost like dripping us little scenarios or ideas. So it almost normalises in our brains. So when they do come out with the the policy, we're not too shocked because we could see it coming. But no, now's the time that we need to get angry about it because it's not just the politicians, it's also influencers, it's the guests that Stephen Bartlett's getting on, and they're trying to look for solutions to women not pla playing the good girl role anymore, um, because we're not generally staying home and having babies, whether it's by choice or not. Um, and they're it's really about trying to stop women's agency and our bodily autonomy, um, just dripping things, like I said, into conversations to normalise and blame women, when actually we should be looking at well, what's men's part in this? What are they taking accountability for? How can they help solve the problem for themselves? Actually, if there is a problem at all, because from where the women are sitting, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem. And that's why I love looking at things like you know, I'm always looking at what's going on around the world, and you know, the the South Korean 4B movement, absolutely amazing. What a political statement that was, just to say, actually, as women, we are going to withdraw our um, you know, withdraw our access to our bodies and our work until you you men start to behave better and treat us better. And then obviously, USA, everything's being repealed over there, you know, you can't escape what's going on over there. And then interestingly, the French Ministry of Health is writing out to all people who are around the age of 29, offering practical help to help solve the fertility crisis. And so, what they're offering, and I mean it is a good thing in a sense, they're supporting women by offering to freeze their eggs free of charge anytime between the age of 29 and 37. Um, and then you know, obviously, we see on the other side of it, rather than being helpful, Iran is changing the legal age of marriage to just nine years old. So there's a lot of the Karen.

Global Signals: 4B, Roe, France, Iran

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Oh my god. I mean, I see this spilling out into coaching conversations. So for me, you know, like working with young women as to whether or not they want children or not, and it's not like a we'll just do one session on this. This can be like a six-month programme. You know, this is a conversation they're having, they're looking at their lives, they're looking at their responsibilities. By the way, many of these women are taking, you know, they're taking care of um the partners, they're also sending money to families back home, you know, they're working really, really hard, and they just don't see how having a family can even can fit into that. There's just no space, no room. Um, and this is a really, you know, it it kind of go it's like a genetical question as well, like, do I want to do this? And for me, it's like if you're gonna send people into a tailspin, um, if you're gonna really, really scare women, start making them believe that they're not gonna have a choice whether they have a family or not. Like that is just for me, that's just a huge fear tactic. And then what that does is send out an alternative message to men that says, We're in charge. When we all know the truth of that ultimately, you know, the woman is the one that carries the baby. So ultimately, if a woman doesn't want to move through with that, you know, really she should have the right to say, I'm not, I'm not having I'm not having a family, such as some of my clients. Um, so this is huge, and I really feel like you know, when it's not just the conversations I'm having in private with my clients, it's also women at the school gates, neighbours coming over and saying, Have you heard about this? Yeah, um, it's all disturbing us on a deeper level, and we need to talk about it.

Real Coaching Rooms, Real Pressures

SPEAKER_00 6:14

So, one thing that's quite interesting is the Stephen Barlett um interview or the episode actually aired, I think, in 2024, and it kind of went under the radar, but there's something about 2026 that actually we are more aware, we are more attuned to the language or the subliminal messaging that's coming out. So people are going back and finding this stuff and saying, hang on a minute, you said this and you said that, like the reformer and um this interview. Um, but positively, when Stephen Barlett asked the question about the state intervening in the um not passing on male genes, um, Dr. Alok Kangia, forgive me if I've said that wrong, um, who was the expert, um, actually said, no, I don't agree with that. Um, he wanted to look at it more systemically, but absolutely not a government intervention to um help men to procreate. But yeah, absolutely in 2026 we it landed differently. Um, we are outraged because it's not just one thing, it just seems to be every angle we're looking at. It's somebody trying to blame women for the choices that or or you know, the work that we've done to get ahead. We're still not anywhere near equality or parity, but we're doing really well, and we're all training our daughters, our nieces, you know, to actually choose differently. And my mum said to me back in the probably late 80s, early 90s, don't get married till you're in your 30s, Lucy. Um, don't have children until you know that you are ready. And I was like, Oh god, I'll be so old. And I remember it clearly because now I'm saying the same things to my daughters, um, and but I'm adding on even more context and more information because whereas my mum was doing it with, you know, saying it with her friends because they've they felt the personal experience of giving up their their lives or not having the decisions, we're now coming at it from a data point of view and a real life experience of, you know, we we know it harms women and it pushes us into poverty, it declines our pension pots, it means that we um, you know, I think at the moment in the UK and in America, a quarter of all children are being raised in a single-parent household. Yeah, and yes, some of those are male-led single-parent households, but the majority are women. And so when you're looking at it, it's like actually a quarter of the population are already doing it on their own, and they know how hard it is, and they don't want their children to have to have the same hardships. Yeah, so yeah, it's it's a lot. Um, but absolutely, you know, that just asking the question, Stephen, was a really bad decision.

Media Influence And Leadership Responsibility

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Bad because he is somebody that people look to, um, and also I think when you step into the role as a leader, whether a business leader, um you hold the respect of people that follow you, that listen to your podcasts, that watch you on Dragon's Den. And I think this is what we're seeing across the world right now is that there are people in positions of power that hold um reputation in their hands, that are there to be good role models, and we know there's a lack of good male role models right now. Um the responsibility is so big that's in their hands, and so what we need to see is people who can sort of hold it and hold it well, because otherwise that has a ripple effect into the world that is so what we're seeing right now, you know. So we're seeing it all, we're seeing the impact, we're seeing um how it's damaging young men and the impact of that on young girls and on women. So, you know, this is the time I think where people to really clean up their acts. I totally agree, yeah. I feel like there's something in the psyche that we all have, this is me going off on a tangent, um, that there is a m mistrust towards the masculine and it lives in our psyches. And so when when I had my daughter as a baby, she wouldn't every time a man came near her, she would cry. My throat's getting really tight. She would cry and I would say, Oh, I'm sorry, you know, she's she's not did I say I was sorry? I'd say, Oh, she's not as comfortable with men, or something like that. And every single person would say to me, That's not a bad thing, including and especially the men. So we have something that lives inside us that is a built-in I ten built-in itenni that says, I don't trust you. And I think as women we've been taught, you know, and young girls, we get taught to override those feelings and those emotions, and oh, I'm being silly, and actually in doing so, we lose a vital part of ourselves which is a primal instinct, and as we we've we've all seen, it's not all men, but which men is it? And men don't trust other men.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

And and I'm gonna give some empathy or compassion here to Stephen because from what I understand, he grew up in a single parent household raised by his phenomenal mother. Um, and so when he first started his podcast as uh a wee 20 something, um, he was absolutely talking about business and entrepreneur entrepreneurialism, um, and he was getting you know business coaches, people who'd made it big, etc. And and he was very much on track. Then as he grew towards his 30s and now in his early 30s, and he's starting to ask the big questions, and obviously he hasn't had that role model potentially in his life, so he's he's seeking other role models and he's asking these questions, and there's been a lot of banter saying, you know, it is the diary of CEO just his own personal therapy session, because it often feels like that, and it's like he's searching for questions like do I get married? Should I have children? What is it to be a man? Uh, etc. So I I think he comes from a deep place, I think he is very reflective, but it's some of the questions or the people he's talking to probably should be done in private, not when he's in a position of leadership. However, if I am going to point you to um one podcast of his, it's the one with Brene Brown, because she just turns it straight back on him and asks him the questions, and uh, which is how a brilliant coach is gonna do it anyway. And he has got a lot of silences because he likes to ask the questions and take in all the information, go away and reflect. But when he's put on the spot, he hasn't got the answers. And the reason why I'm I'm highlighting this is because his listeners are getting the information from his guests, their answers, and they might not be as reflective, they might just see that as uh oh, that's the truth, and they don't have somebody then to go and like talk about it to or test the assumptions, and that's why I think it's really, really dangerous. So I'm being compassionate, giving him the benefit of the doubt. Um, but it's the listeners who I think it's really dangerous towards. Absolutely, I agree with that 100%.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

So let's get into this conversation from our perspective as Western women and as professionals, about the what does this question really reveal about patriarchy, male loneliness, and the impact on women and girls, including the economics of it all. Because we know that if the birth rates are declining, I mean I see it in my daughter's school, she knows they are they've gone into like one class per year when it used to be two because birth rates are falling, and the school isn't getting the same amount of funding, and they have to do certain things to survive. So this is a real it's a real issue. It affects it's affecting us on a very, very basic level. Um yeah, and we need to be able to sort of acknowledge that, I think, because this is happening, it's happening here, but it isn't happening in Africa.

Later Motherhood And Dating Mismatch

SPEAKER_00 14:11

So in Africa, the birth rates are booming. So this is something I just wanted to address um with the Matt Goodwins of this world, um, who are reformers, who are um trying to stop immigration and people arriving as um asylum seekers. Uh, yet they are saying that we need to increase the birth rate, and it just makes me question which birth rate are they trying to actually increase? Well, they mean that's right. Absolutely. We know this because the the world is overpopulated, it's not sustainable. Um, but yes, they they just haven't come out and said it yet. But let me just put a few bits of data around this. Um, when I was born in way back in the 70s, the average age for a woman having a child was 23.9 years old. Today, well, 2022, it was 29.2 years old. So I had my first daughter a week before my 27th birthday, and I was absolutely average. There were a couple of outliers either way, but most of us were in our mid to late 20s, and that was 22 years ago. Um, now yeah, it's most people are having their first child around their 30s, um, and a quarter of babies being born are to women who are in their 40s, um, you know, and I know that was very much your case. So there's this absolute strange thing that's going on where women, because of lots of reasons, some of it is to do with understanding red flags, having high standards, being able to um support themselves financially, wanting a career, those are just some of the things, but they're choosing to have children later, and they're looking for partners who are emotionally available and ready. So they're probably looking for people around their same age or maybe a little bit older. Yet a lot of the men still want women in their early 20s, mid-twenties, so there's absolutely a match uh a mismatch of you know, the the people who want to settle down are not the ones who are available, so there is absolutely a gap in or a gap in the number of eligible partners, and that's for men and for women. So I just wanted to speak to that really, because it's there is socioeconomic stuff going on there, but there's also just a lack of desirable partners. Absolutely.

Lost Boys, High-Performing Girls

SPEAKER_01 16:45

I mean, I was listening to one of the Stephen Bartlett recent podcasts, and you know, when I was listening to the conversation, it was talking about how women are, you know, before they reach 30, the young, the younger women are doing better than men. They are more advanced, they're doing better in the workplace, they're doing better at school, they are uh their brains are more developed, they're more mature, um, they've got their heads screwed on, you know, and they know what they want and they're focused. Now, by if you compare that to young men, it's a totally different story. And that's this whole thing around the lost boys, and then we're all talking about these lost boys who who are turning to porn, who are turning, who are, you know, struggling to get work, they're not taking care of themselves and their personal hygiene. You can't expect a young woman who has, you know, work really, really hard to get to where she is to think, Oh, actually, yes, I do need to go and and actually I will accept one of those guys, you know, who probably hasn't had a wash that day um and want to go and procreate with them. I mean, I'm sorry, but that's what world do they actually live in. So that's what makes me so angry because I look at my daughter and I think she's a go-getter, and she carries on in the traject trajectory that she's on, she will create amazing things, and I see that that fire and that ability in her, and sometimes I'm like, just chill out a little bit. She's so extreme with what she wants. Like, she wants to do math homework before she goes to bed, and I'm like, that's not coming from me, this is her. Um, so she's got this sort of tenacity. So I see her and I think, wow, like someone's gonna have to be very high, like on a level to um meet where she's at already at seven. It's it blows my mind every time I look at her. I'm like, oh my god. Um, so I see that and I and I get it, and then I just think they need to step up. And now the role modelling thing is a really important thing because if they haven't got good male role models around them, I understand that that can create, you know, negative behaviours because who's saying to them, right, listen, this is what we're gonna do today, and we're gonna go do that, and you know, this is where we're going, we're going to get out, we're gonna exercise, we're gonna so if that's lacking from their lives, I do understand the impact of that, but it still can't be the fault of women.

Consent, Entitlement, And Role Models

Be Exceptional: Rethinking Fatherhood

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Oh, none of it's the fault of women. Um, and this is the rhetoric we've got to just stop. Um none of this is women's fault. Um, now there has been an issue in the the last few hundred years where women were classed as property, um, you know, and there was uh an entitlement of men uh that women are their property. And so it takes a long time for their rhetoric, their uh unconditioning to come in. But this is why absolutely we need better role models, we need men, not just having um conversation, maybe a little bit about the birds and the bees, but actually talking to them about what a healthy relationship looks like. It shouldn't be the school teachers having to talk about what consent is, it should be the fathers having those conversations or their uh if the fathers aren't around, an uncle or an older brother. And this is the bit that I think is missing, and and I think this entitlement that they are feeling, and it might be because they are having that banter with other kids their age, or because they are watching porn, listening to certain music which denigrates women, um, you know, they do have a sense of sense of entitlement. It's the patriarchy, of course they do. Um but they still, you know, we were brought up with Christian teachings that man was the creator, he created Eve, he created the world, you know, that we we live in, um, and we should be masterful over it. So they're going into the world thinking, well, you know, it's men that uh create children, we must spread our seed. Um, we need help to pass our genes. And I even thinking about it, you know, even now some men still expect their wives to take their surname as property. Um, you know, so everything from reproduction to um you know what goes on in your will or how your money is shared, it's all still based on a patriarchal system, not matrilineal, where it was passed down through the mothers and daughters or mothers and sons. So it's we've got a long way to go, but without the louder voices saying, come on, this is how to be a good man or a good father. It's not just about giving you seed and throwing a little bit of money to pay the mortgage or the rent, it's actually about being emotionally available, it's about working through your own stuff, it's about being a good match for your partner. So they actually choose to have children with you.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

And the phrase that stood out for me was about being exceptional, like be an exceptional human, be an exceptional man, you know, go out there and show the world. Now that feels like a lot of pressure at the same time. So part of me goes, Well, that's a lot of pressure, but at the same time, there is something in that because that's when you go, Oh because I do meet young men and I go, Wow, I was really impressed by him. You know, and it it really sort of resonates, and you think, What an amazing young man, you know, like I'm really proud of that that human that I'm seeing in front of me, and I think we need that, don't we? We need to

SPEAKER_00 22:00

We need to celebrate them and tell them. I think you're awesome. I think you're amazing. Um, because if people aren't telling them, it's not reinforcing it. Absolutely.

Readiness, Cost Of Living, And Care Work

SPEAKER_01 22:08

And you know, and it it just takes me down this track of like, you know, as a woman, you know, being a mum is one of the hardest jobs. My mum says to me all the time, it's the hardest job in the world. And I agree with her, you know, and I I look at, you know, that role and I think, God, this is really challenging. It's like it's challenging me in every single area. Now, I love being a mum, you know, and I would not change that for the world. But the reality is it takes a lot from me. And I think women see that and they understand that, and they want, you know, there's something about wanting to be ready. That was my journey where I just thought I hadn't met the right person, I knew I didn't want to do it alone, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I for me that wasn't an option, and I just there needed to be that level of readiness for me to be able to do it. Um, and it took a lot longer, you know. And whilst I knew I wanted to be a mum, like I didn't, I always had a maternal instinct in me, regardless. So that was something that was very easy for me. Now, not all women have that, but for me it was like, of course, but it was like, but the conditions need to be right, and if the conditions are not right, then then it's lot probably not gonna happen for me. So there's that side of it, and then there's the the cost of living that we're in at the moment, and the idea of taxing women who don't have children, you know, like we're already struggling to survive as it is in terms of how expensive everything is, and how for me when I look at like before COVID, before I got pregnant, and I look at what I could live on, and then what I live on now and what I need to earn, you know, it's a lot, yeah. And that's not like being extravagant, that's just basics. I'm talking basics here, and so that we've had a huge set shift in the cost of things, and so expecting women to you know go and have children without a plan, for me that's just like that just doesn't make sense.

System Fixes: Leave, Flexibility, And Work

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Tax is not going to make it happen. I mean, we already get child benefit of like£100 a month to have your child to help them out. Um, that doesn't make people have more children, you know. When when you get these people saying, oh no, we're yeah, we're going to be um procreating all over the place. I'm like, nah, people aren't people aren't doing that for a hundred quid a month, honestly. Um, it's just farcical because yeah, most people I know are having one, two, maybe three children, but I rarely see families bigger than three these days because most of them are stuck in rentals, um, they can't get on the property ladder. Um, if they are working from home, there might be a little bit more of a push because they've got some ability to have that flexibility. But these are the barriers. If you want women to have children, you need to take the systemic barriers away. So, you know, rather than having just three weeks parental or yeah, parental leave for men, actually give them more, you know, let the men um contribute or have as much leave. Uh, because at the moment I think you can have um you can have your year, but it's either the man or the woman. Um, so again, it's still put on generally the the woman who stays at home. Um, allow for more remote working, hybrid working, allow for more flexibility. So if um your child is sick that you've got options, um, you know, the school day it runs nine till three, yet the working day is often half eight till half four, half five. It just everything is not set up for women as the main carers to be able to work, live healthily. So maybe we fix those things, maybe women will want to actually have exactly more children.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

And the data say is that from the age of 30, there's a whole shift around. So from from the young women doing really well, then something shifts. We know that's prime family time, and also you've got pe perimenopause starts to kick in as you get in towards the 40s, so it's a whole different side of the story once women get into this sort of 30 to 40s age racket, and that's because of the factors of what's going on in their lives. So we can see why women might be choosing to think, you know what, actually, this is fine as it is. Um, there are so many factors, there's actually probably more reasons not to have children these days than there is to have children if you were a woman, and you've actually done quite well so far, you know. Like, why would you give all that up?

Why Many Stop At One Or Two

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Well, if you've been logical, yeah, it was reversed. Men would never choose to have children if they had the same barriers, and um, it wouldn't make any logical sense. But thankfully, this goes beyond logic because it is, you know, like we said, we both knew we wanted to be mothers. Um, so we felt something within that we wanted to do this because it is a very human, it animalistic thing to be able to procreate. But stopping at one, stopping at two might be the most sensible thing. So we've we've done our uh we've fulfilled that yearning within us, but then we said, right, we're done now. And my nan, she had 10 kids, and I've got so much respect for her because um back in the those post-war days, they they were actively encouraging, you know, to replace a population basically. So you were revered for doing that. But she didn't have a career, um, she gave everything up to have these 10 children, and I look at her now and I'm just like, I mean, she's she's obviously passed on, but I just think, wow, what what a commitment. You must have been knackered most of the time. And my granddad was great, but he didn't, you know, have a lot of money or anything. But um, yeah, I knew after five months of having my firstborn that um I needed to get back into the world of work. It was that social isolation of, you know, we talk about the male loneliness um epidemic, but women who have worked who then become housewives um and do the work in the home, it's lonely. And there's no reason most of the women in the 50s and 60s were all on Valium.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Absolutely, and I remember those times as well, you know, I'm there with my baby, and you kind of can't really move because you've you're holding a baby, the baby's asleep, you're stuck in a room, and I just remember being stuck in rooms thinking, is anyone gonna come and let me out? Because I I had her in my hands, and you know, the doors were kind of would were fit in one way, and I couldn't actually get out properly when she was small, and I couldn't quite coordinate myself properly. And eventually someone would come in and I'd be like, Oh thank god you come in and sat here for like half an hour, just you know, waiting because I couldn't get out of the room because I didn't want to wake her up. Like that's a very small, you know, like example of it, but that's what I'm remembering, and I'm remembering like I remember saying to Richard, I feel so I'm like never alone, but I also feel quite lonely, you know. And and then there's the women who can't have babies for really good reasons. So are they gonna get taxed? You know, are they gonna get penalised? I mean, it's it's crazy. There are a lot of women that I also know who have tried really hard to conceive and it hasn't worked out for them. And I was really nearly in that category, and you know, there's an awareness of that as well, you know, like actually a lack of awareness, I would say, on some sides, an awareness that I have that you just think, you know, this is such an incredibly um bespoke journey for every woman, and every woman has her own story and her own version of things, and it's not a policy, you can't just tax it. No, to think that you can tell a woman um, you know, tell a woman what to do and then sort of penalise her for not doing what you want her to do it it like it just doesn't it if it's not logical to me, um, and there's definitely no empathy there.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

I I'm gonna ask you something now, but um have you ever in your life dreamt about running away to some commune where it's just a really simple life and we can all just raise our kids in a really peaceful, blissful place, maybe having a few goats or sheep around, um surrounded by sisters? Um that's a very good question.

Motherhood’s Isolation And Invisible Labour

SPEAKER_01 30:02

I have a friend who tells me to do that all the time. He's like, You need to move, you need to leave England England, you need to go somewhere in Europe. Um he's always said, You'd be a great teacher, you could teach the kids, like you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

But this is my point is I know so many women who have either silently fantasized about it or we're actually talking about it, saying, Let's do this, wouldn't that be amazing? Um and actually it speaks to me to the reason why women don't want to have children and they don't want to be having to go out and date and mate and do all of that kind of stuff. Because actually, what they dream of, let's call it a matriarchal system, um, but it's actually just a community where they feel safe, where they can be emotionally regulated, be with people who make them feel safe, caring about the children, um, none of this utter BS that we see, you know, out there in the wider world. And actually, it's just a really place of safety. And then, of course, you're gonna want to bring children into the world when it's like that. So that it I'm sharing that with you, or I'm just posing that question because the things that we're longing for, or the things that we fantasize that we would really love, are often a signal about things that we can create a change. So let's move into some potential solutions because we know taxing women well, people is not going to be it, and we know that um the government intervening to get men to pass on their genes, it could happen, but it's not what we want. So, can just share some ideas and then I'll pitch in with a few.

Complexity Of Fertility And Choice

SPEAKER_01 31:42

I've gone all like reflective because it's such a big, big conversation, this one for me. Um I that's why I feel like creating the different spaces for women is really, really important. But if I think about I do want my husband to be around, yeah. You know, I g I get something from the relationship, I get a lot from the relationship actually, and he supports it many different ways. So I don't the idea of it of there being a community without men, that doesn't feel right either. But I I do look at what's going on in the world and I just think I still have that thing of who can which ones can I trust.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

So I'm just gonna just pause it there for you though, because when I said uh community, which is more matriarchal led, it I didn't say men weren't there. No, I know you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

I was gonna get onto that. Um I did I was gonna get onto that. You know, this has to be something where we work together, but I I think I am if I'm being honest, like I want more community, I want connection, I want to be in nature, I want to feel safe. Like I know what I want, but when I get into how does that actually work and how does that happen, I see women as sort of taking the central piece in it. So I see that it's a like women will lead that because we know it instinctively, you know, and we've done plenty of work in that field, and I've done plenty of work in that field. So I know I could step out into something and lead and make something matriarchal. Um I know that about myself. The bit that I go, it's all the dynamics, the thing that I always struggle with is dynamics and shifts and changes, and the k I'm good at communicating. So that's why like I want men plugged in to the matriarchal systems and men embodging it too. But I apart from my husband and my father, and some some people that I know who are brilliant, who I would go, yeah, you can come in. I also I I I think the bit where I go, who do we let in? I think that's where it's I see boundaries. I see a screen.

Longing For Safety And Community

SPEAKER_00 33:42

There has to be, there has to be. But the um I actually think that there's more good guys there than there are bad. The problem is is we don't know which ones are which, but actually, um you can look around, and us women we get a vibe, we do know the ones who just make us feel safe, and it's not game playing, they've just got this, you know, they say the right thing, they do the right thing, they're present safe. There's a presence. Absolutely, and there's there are a lot of them around, and actually, if the society or the systems in your community, in your household, what goes on within your four walls is that, then the men can really step up to being these extraordinary men, yeah. Um, to be the emotional partners, to be the ones who want to be involved in their children's upbringing and make decisions and have fun, but also teach them the tenderness and all of those life lessons. They will, you know, that if they are in the right environment, then it can absolutely happen. And then you raise your sons and daughters to see, oh, this is the way that we do things. So, my challenge or my question was really about to point people to say, you can do this within your own homes right now. You could do this, it doesn't need to for us all to go off to some Scottish Hebridean island and build a camp, actually. Well, we can we can still do that, honestly. But but my point is we can create our own reality within within our own homes, and you've actually already started doing that, Karen. Your household is absolutely like that, yeah. Um, and my world is just filled with people in, but the ones I do oh, really good people, and if if they're not, my boundaries go up and say, Yeah, you're not allowed in through these doors or these emotional walls. So that's my that's my solution. We can't change the big whole society, but if every household starts shifting just that little bit with each generation, but starting today, actually we we can we shift our energy instead of being in shock or anger, we actually start pouring it into love and building something that lasts and endures. And I know it because I've done it with my own children, um, and I see them going into the the adult world, and they are phenomenal because they have been, you know, in this kind of world for 20 odd years, and I have absolute faith that they will then build their households in the same vein.

Home As A Matriarchal Prototype

SPEAKER_01 36:14

I love what you're saying here because it's almost like we're already doing it in many guises. Because I think often we can go into like that, okay, how are we going to do that? And it can feel so big and just you know, you just think, oh god, what you know, how do we shift from that to that? Um, but when you realise that we're already doing it and we're doing elements of it, you know, you're right. I mean, I our entire household, like Rich Rich is um matriarchal in the way he approaches things, you know, in the way he lives, he always has been. That's the reason why I was drawn to him. It's not because he's met me, he didn't change when he met me, he was always like that. Um, thank God. So for me, you know, it's more like just doing what we're doing and sharing what we're doing and talking about it, um, and keep doing it really and let let's keep evolving. I think that's the key thing. And when I think when I used to think about like masculine and feminine energies, I always saw the masculine as this guardian protect protector, you know, that they were guardians for women, for families, um, because of the physicality, purely on the physicality in a way, and would actually be the ones that would you know safeguard us so that we could be uh mothers and so that we could, you know, like live our lives, very best lives. Now I think the world has, you know, in many ways, we've sort of men have fallen off this pedestal because of their behaviour. Now, like we say, it's not all men, but we're trying to work out which. So we go back into that, and that takes up a lot of our energy, and I feel like for men it's a it's a huge call in, and especially for the young men, to say, actually, part of my remit here is to protect and respect women and girls, and it's that starts from from a very young age, you know, and and yes, they they need to take responsibility for that. And I'm sorry, that's I'll always hold that because they're the sort of men that I want around, the ones that will say, you know, we talk about this a lot, don't we? Like the fathers, the uncles, the managers, the leaders that would say, Oh, actually, that's not appropriate. Um, can we have a word about that?

Standards, Boundaries, And Good Men

SPEAKER_00 38:10

You know, and my god, they are respected when they they stand up and do it. Um, because there'll be some silent people looking around, like, is this going to be tolerated? And when somebody steps up and says, No, we don't tolerate that uh language, that behaviour around here, it's almost like everybody else around just has a big sign, it's like, good. I'm so glad. Um, so yeah, I really like what you say about um evolving, and that's probably where we should leave this podcast conversation for today. So, would you like to sign off, Karen?

SPEAKER_01 38:42

I feel like we've you know really dusted off a lot of cobwebs in this conversation, and we've covered some really like hot topics, some troubling topics, we've gone you know through various different, you know, real life examples. So I hope that all of you listening today feel like we've really given this, I suppose, a big uh push, a big um consideration, and I hope that you've learned some things and that you have a sense of hope and optimism inside because really the key to this is you. And I want you to take that key, unlock the doors of limitations, and show up for yourself and for your families. Um, we want to say thank you so much for listening. Come follow us, come hang out with us on social media, and we look forward to sharing another conversation with you soon. And until then, keep saying it, sister.