You Can Speak Up Without Sounding Bossy

We stop normalising the ways we soften, apologise, and shrink our words at work, then practise swaps that sound clear, warm, and authoritative. We also get honest about interruptions and unwanted attention, and how naming boundaries protects both our confidence and our safety. 
• why women lose their voices through conditioning and conformity 
• a simple journalling method to prepare for difficult conversations 
• spotting shrinking language in emails and meetings 
• phrase swaps that remove apology and uncertainty 
• balancing humility with authority so people trust you 
• bridging techniques that refocus without shutting others down 
• naming flat energy in a room and handing it back to the group 
• scripts and styles for stopping interrupters in the moment 
• handling unwanted attention, inappropriate jokes, and personal space violations 
• when to escalate, document, and use HR channels 
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Transcript

Why Women Shrink Their Voice

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to the Say It System podcast with Karen, Harris, Kelly, and Lucy Barkas. We gather every week to bring you conversations that women often have in private. We want to say them loudly, proudly, with the hope that we can all use our voices powerfully and also help us all feel a little less alone. Today we're tackling something that impacts nearly every single one of us. We're talking about our own voices. How we use them, how we hide them, but most importantly, how we can stop ourselves from shrinking to make other people feel comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hey there, Lucy here, and uh yeah, I I had this question going round my mind about how many times have I started to shrink myself or made myself feel a little bit smaller just so people might like me, or um, because I'm big energy and uh and when people meet me that they they feel my energy, and I always worry that it's a bit too much because people have told me I'm a bit much. Um, so it got the question that came up is like, have you ever felt yourself maybe typing in emails and just sprinkling in the words, um, just or try, or you know, these small minimizing language, uh, you know, I'm just checking in, or I just thought I'd share, you know, those kind of phrases that are basically good girl, meek, small, shrinkage kind of phrases, or even perhaps you've been in a meeting and midway through, a brilliant point, a colleague comes and speaks right over you. I know that's happened because that's happened to me, and I I'm one of those loud ones. Um, and in that moment you just stop, and often you just let them talk, and then you try and recapture your flow later, but the moment's gone, and each time that happens, you shrink a little bit more and a little bit more. So, today that's what we're gonna put an end to. Uh, so we're dedicating this episode, the next 30 minutes, to kind of like claiming our space again. Um, we're gonna share some actual phrases we hear uh when we're out and about working with our clients, um, and we're gonna try and flip them to sound more empowering, more authoritative, more assertive without sounding, well, bossy. Um, so yeah, they'll be there so you can keep them in your back pocket whenever you want. And uh we'll cover how you know apologizing for your mere existence is over, and so how you can like really confidently raise a suggestion, bring an idea, um, question somebody else's thoughts and how to deal with those chronic interrupters and how to shut down any of that unwanted attention, especially when it's in the workplace, in a professional but absolutely bounded manner. So grab a cup of tea or a cup of coffee, get comfortable, and we're gonna take you on that journey.

Prepare For Big Conversations

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Yeah, and I want to start by saying there's something about the why, why girls, why women lose their voices. And I think it's such a personal journey that we all go on to finding and reclaiming our voices. Because clearly, as little children, we had a voice, we knew how to say no, you know, but something happens around the school journey that you know makes us sort of put these sort of like straitjackets on and you know conform. And and I I do believe that some of that is necessary and needed, um, however, I think it also dampens us down to a point where you know we're scared to speak up. I think it's a personal journey, I think it's a collective journey. You know, if it was just me over here saying, Oh, I lost my voice, you know, I've lost my voice many times in my life, I've also found it again many times in my life. Um, but it's not just me, and this is why we have this power in this collective, because this is all women, and also the deliberate movement to to suppressing women's voices, and we see it in some countries very deliberately. Um, in other countries, maybe that's masked a bit more where we think we've got you know free speech and stuff, and then we realise that things are being shut down behind the scenes. Um, you know, even protesting, you know, aka LinkedIn right now. Yeah, LinkedIn right now, um Instagram to some extent as well, because I've had my posts silenced um you know about the Epstein files, and then I've had to go in and and you know request for it to be changed because it's it's about common interest, which it totally is, and then it's been changed. But had I not have gone through that process, they would have been taken down, those posts, and it was about the victims. So, you know, this is something that we have to experience in life. I think the more we experience it, the more the opportunity to claim our voices and claim them really strongly, but it's still hard work, and I want to understand the stories why behind why women are not speaking up, and knowing that there is so much inner work to do, and the thing that I want to sort of offer as a gift at this start in this conversation is before any big conversation we need to prepare ourselves, and there's a there's the point of instinct when sometimes we speak up and we've not thought about it, and it just comes through us, which I love. But when we're going in and we're wanting something really important and we're preparing, we need to do some quite deep work here. And the thing that I will always say to my clients is take a pause, get your book and your journal out and your pen, and I want you to write these things down. I want you to write, I feel whatever you're feeling, write it down. I feel nervous, I feel scared, I feel um small, whatever it might be, write it down. I'm believing that they will say no, um, they won't listen to me, I'm wasting my time. Um write that down. But what I really need right now is and whatever you need, whatever they need more money, flexibility, um time, you know, different times. I want to work on different timings, different time zones, whatever it might be, write it down because the need is what is the thing that needs your honour. And then work through the belief that's there and work through the feeling that's there. So that you can go in there and be like, regardless of what answer I get, I believe that I'm worthy enough of this m this money, this promotion, um, this you know, flexibility. I am worthy of it and I know it in every single part of my body because I've done the work to tell me that I'm worth it.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

I've got to say, the the women that we work with, the the coaching clients, they come to us because they are they're already, you know, way ahead in their careers, but they know they they can do this work, and then some they come to us to do that reaffirming, to say it out loud. Um, so this process you're going, uh you've just shared absolutely spot on. Um, and then go and say it to somebody trusted. Um practice it, look in the mirror and say those words confidently.

Spotting Shrinking Language Patterns

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Yeah, and also that there is something about it that is also on the positive side that we can flip it and say, I feel empowered, I feel um my you know, my absolute prime of my life. I believe I'm worthy of this, and I need X. I need to do two days a week, full stop, and then see what comes back. So there's the positive side of it. Now we might not verbalise that outwards in such a way, or we might do, we might do, and say, you know, I know my worth in this company. I feel like I mean that is amazing. Just say that exactly as you've just said it. That's enough. It's enough. I know my value in this company, and I believe that I'm um, you know, absolutely fantastic and in my prime, and I need X simple. It sounds so simple, doesn't it? So let's go into some of the shrinking language. I mean, we've kind of done like one version and the other version, and it's it's nice to flip things on the other side because I think often we go in and we just take one road, but actually, there's always two sides of a coin, isn't there? Um, and we want to be able to hold space for both. So let's start talking by this about this shrinking language, which you started off so brilliant brilliantly with. I feel like this, you know, this conditioning, women are told to soften their edges, not be gnarly. I love that word gnarly, but like not be gnarly, you know, and be cute and sweet, smile. Um, and we we're learning how to be light and how to be likable and how to be accommodating. And this creeps into our vocabulary, and words are such a brilliant example of how we're feeling. And so when we use certain words, it's such a gift as coaches because we're like, ooh, that word's just stuck in the middle of that you know sentence, it means something. What's that about? And we want to get into that today. Let's talk about the apology, let's talk about you know, the good girls, let's talk about how we felt at school. I didn't speak up, I only started speaking up when I got to university, I think, but I was actually really scared of being on stage, and I did a media degree, history and media degree, and I remember, you know, like having to get on the stage and do certain things, and I remember the nerves in my body and the like the sound in my ears, because it goes into my ears, and like that it's like washing water is what I can hear, and I remember that and the sweaty hands, and just thinking, Oh my god, I don't want to be here, and yet I did want to be there, I wanted to be on that stage, I wanted to stand up for something, and I wanted to have a career, and so I wanted it, but I feared it, and it's like this sort of push-pull sometimes. And people have told me all my life that I speak I speak I speak quietly, and that's been something that's always stayed with me. And um, I do I am quietly spoken, but I do have a voice, and I think it's okay to have a quiet speaking voice as long as I can project it when I need to, and that's been a good one.

Email And Meeting Phrase Swaps

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I've got to say I'm totally the opposite to you and your whole experience. Um, and the thing that was pressed onto me was that I was too loud, too opinionated, uh, too in your face. Now, when I meet people, like I was at um a counter-protest, and this woman just turned around to me and she said, I love your energy. And I'm like, Wow, I feel so validated because most of the time my energy was always seen as too much, and I was told to be softer or quieter. Um, and so I was shrinking, and I was never rude. Um, I was never, yeah, I was never too much. It's just when something came into my head, because I have ADHD, I now know. I just needed to blurt it, or or if I was enthusiastic, it would just come out. Um, and I understand, you know, how powerful that is because I'm I can influence um and I can, you know, bring people along with me. But yeah, also in the back of my mind, it's that constant, especially in the working world, don't don't speak up, don't be so assertive because I've been told um I'm too ambitious, I'm too assertive, um, too loud, all of those things, too, too, too, too, too. And it was actually just that other person's mirror. Yeah, um, but thankfully I I didn't really listen to them. Yes, I might have dialed down a little bit to be professional, um, but no, I've never been backwards and coming forwards. Um, and that's why a lot of women do find me because that they see that in me and like, how does she do it? Or I want to be like that. And so I absolutely help the women who are on the cusp, they want to be there. Um, and I just give them that well, often it's the confidence, but sometimes it's just giving them the key phrases or the tools, um, which we're going to talk about today. So I want to bring in the perspective of how do you start your emails? Um, or when you need to make a request, do you go ultra formal so it doesn't sound anything like you and you use all the like the keywords and the jargon of like, you know, to whom it may concern? Um, or do you start with oh, really sorry to bother you? Um, you know, and it's just that reminder that you're at work doing your job, you're not bothering anybody. If you've got something to add, or you need something from somebody, or you need to give some information, it's never a bother. The same with if you're going up to somebody's physical desk um and you need to talk to them about it. Actually, this is about your work. You need to be able to communicate. So never say, Oh, sorry to bother you, or you know, can I just get um just there's that word again, or oh, I'll I'll try and come back later. No, just say, look, I really need some time. Um, so yeah, we're gonna go through through three or four different scenarios and just give you some how-tos, and I'm gonna maybe say it in my words, and then you can hear the softer Karen say it in hers, and just notice that it's actually not so much about how high your voice is or whatever, it's about you totally owning it and using the words and practicing them. So, here's some of my top ones, and then I'll come to you, Karen, and you can share some of your ways of saying the same thing in the words that you'd use. So, here we go. Instead of saying sorry for the delay, try thank you for your patience. I mean, that is just so powerful, isn't it? And I hear this so many times. Oh, sorry I'm late, sorry it was delayed, oh sorry, and then come out with a whole list of excuses and you just wound people up now. They just want to know, you know, that you're here now. So just a simple thank you for your patience shows respect. Instead of saying, Oh, sorry to bother you, uh, use, do you have a moment to discuss this? Or I need to raise something with you, is now a good time. And again, just notice the change in my my tone as I say it. Um, instead of saying, Oh, does that make sense? Which implies that maybe you know, you're explaining it, you're you're actually, you know, uh framing your questions as a question that you're questioning yourself rather than you're questioning them. So maybe change it to something like, How does that sound to you? Or what are your thoughts on this approach? And you're inviting them in to be more inclusive. You genuinely sound like you want to hear their thoughts rather than validating your own. So share, Karen, how would you approach those kind of questions or those those interactions?

SPEAKER_02 14:03

I think sorry for delay, I wouldn't even say it, I would just go straight in. For me, it's just like things get delayed, don't they? So I wouldn't even I wouldn't even do that one. I would just be like, right, let's, you know, I just I like to just get into it. So I am an ap. I do apologise for things though. I will own that. I'm not saying that I don't apologise for things. I'll say sorry to bother you. I do say sorry to bother you. That's one of my mind that I I can own that one. Um I think especially when you're, you know, you because my whole thing has been around I work with really busy, really senior people. But you're not bothering them. I'm just saying too much. I hold I hold time in such high regard that it's such a such a I mean for me, time is a you know, a quantifiable, like it's like money. And so time is so I hold time and I and I'm always like, if I I just want to support and um be of assistance, and if I get into my head, you know, and I'm having to chase people for things, as we have to do, we have to chase people because everybody's time poor. So the chasing is something that I want to apologize for that I've had to chase them, but it's not really on me, it's on them.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

No, but the minute you say sorry to bother you, you're putting in the mind that you are a bother. So already you're positioning yourself as a nag or a pain, and you're just not you're you're trying to offer them something awesome, and you're just trying to get them to say yes or no to something. Exactly. Um, that's not a bother, that's a gift.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

I also get lots of emails from from leaders saying, sorry, it's taken me so long to get back to you. So we see it on the other foot, and I always say it's genuine though, isn't it? That yeah, and I always say there's nothing to apologize for. Yeah. Because I think we all have this understanding of life, of work, of the busyness of everything. So I think everybody generally has an understanding that if things are taking a bit longer, it's for a really good reason. Um, so I I feel like in the business world, in the certainly with the people that I mix with, we all get it, and we all get where each other is, you know, the seats that we all sit in, and there's a lot of respect in that world for me anyway. Um, so that's the it's up, but it's it's an interesting one because the apology is always there, and I think it's on all sides. Um, and maybe it's a very British thing as well, where we feel the need to sort of apologize for anything.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

And I but I actually respect that when if somebody has left you hanging for some time or hasn't responded, um, I I actually welcome the apology, you know, to say I'm really, you know, I'm sorry or I apologize for the delay in that respect, because it in an email it just starts the flow of like, okay, you know, I'm respecting your time as well. But it's when it's that constant starting everything with an apology when we've got serious work to do, you know, you're being paid to do the work. Um, so genuinely, if you have messed up, apologize, but don't just apologize just for opening up an email. No, definitely not going to somebody's desk or walking through the doors. We don't you don't need to apologize for that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Um and honestly, yes, good, good. And um, I was uh listening to a woman um speak last week, and I could just sense her lack of trust in herself by the words that she was using, and it was something like, you know, oh, I think maybe we could um just perhaps, well, maybe look at a different angle. And she used all of these phrases in all of this succession, and actually, all I needed her to say was something like, um, I have a different angle on that, or I hold a different perspective, let me share it, rather than just apologizing. And I actually used it as a teachable um moment and even got her to say exactly the same phrase, but from an assertive point of view, like, I think we could just maybe, perhaps we could try a different angle. And it was more about the tone and the pace of the words, but you could see her shrinking, and it just made everybody else then not trust her thought because she didn't clearly trust herself. I think so that was a really teachable moment, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Between arrogance and humbleness, and also then there's the like the insecurities, and they're all different, and they all you can say exactly the same things, but you get the feeling from the words, and I think you know, the insecurity sounds like that. The arrogance is just like I'm gonna steam through you no matter what, no one likes that, and uh, and that's like a really bullish feeling, and and that that for me is gonna shut me straight down and I'm gonna be so evasive. And I don't see many women doing that, no, no, and then you've got you know, then you've got the humble, and I know so many brilliant humble women, and I love the way they approach it because there's a humbleness to it, yet they're still, you know, they're still channeling and demanding and being very directive, but they're doing it from a humble seat. So I think that's my preferred um request. Um, there was something I was gonna say, and I'm just gone, I've just gone totally flank.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Um that's fine.

unknown 18:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

But own it again, don't apologize, just own it. It wasn't no, it's like the the the blankness is there, but I'm more frustrated because there was something really important that I wanted to say. If that was it, I came from an ex PR background, and back in the day when people would call each other, I would have you'd have a phone on your desk, and you would be calling the national newspapers, and you'd have 30 seconds to pitch a story idea to them before they hung up on you. Um, so I learned very, very quickly how to direct my communication and be very, very like getting people's attention and also that you didn't have time to apologize. It was literally like I've got something really good for you, and it's this, and I think that directiveness through my job has really put me in good stead because when I need to have a conversation, I do cut straight through because that was how I was trained, and I was 21 when I first started working in PR. So it it set me up, and I think sometimes when there's I sometimes I can go off on a storytelling um trajectory, but when I'm working on the in the business field and when I'm coaching, I'm so direct and to the point because I it something kicks in in me that's like just don't don't do that. You've got 30 seconds, make your mark. And every question I ask, it's like 30 seconds, make the mark. It's like it's just inbuilt in me. Um and I feel like that training was great, and I would would want every woman to have that kind of training of like you've got 30 seconds, go make your request. Um, you know, actually, really now we're told it's changed even more these days. Now it's more like 15 seconds, yeah. You know, so you've got 15 seconds, make your request, and make it clear.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

That is and this is skills, it's just skills, um, and which is why we wanted to bring you, you know, you listeners, some key phrases because these are just skills about how to project your voice, how to absolutely own it and know what you want and um and value the other person's time, and then just ask for what you need. So we're gonna just talk about these questions, uh, or that when you need to raise a question or you need to make a request. So here's another, whether it's for the boardroom or on a Zoom call in the office, whatever. So uh sorry, just a quick question. That is a phrase that I hear so much. Rather than uh, well, what we want you to say is something like, I have a question about that. Brilliant. I mean, it's just taking out the sorry and the quick. Um, I might be wrong, but no, from what I understand, I mean, how powerful is that? If you've been working on this and you are the data expert, you're the subject matter expert, you will have an understanding. So don't judge yourself by I might be wrong, because the comeback is yes, you are wrong. Somebody is gonna fight you or disagree with you. So, no, from what I understand, XXX. And then again, does that make sense to let me know if you need more detail? Let me know if you need more clarity, you know, put it back on them rather than putting the doubt in you. Um, and yeah. When you pitch an idea for something that you think is awesome, I recommend we take this approach. Um, or here's another option to consider. There are so many of these powerful words that you just maybe need to write your personal list of you know whatever you your natural style is, and then flip it in the most confident, humble, but also assertive manner. What'd you say to that, Karen?

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Well, I also think it it's really important to build some bridges as well because we can say, like, what I love about your comment is this, and it's like a full stop, and I really want us to consider my original idea because the data tells me that. Or through the conversations I've had, I have learnt that. So, you know, we don't have to sort of like I mean, unless someone's coming up with some out with something and it's totally preposterous and it's just like there's just no way, sometimes we have to sort of break that, you know, and lead from a different place.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

So it's like I disagree with everything that you've just said, and this is my view, and they're clean sentences, it's very presented, it's clean, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

It's clean. Or if you're like, I don't want to, you know, like there's something there, but we're going off on a on a sort of like a weird sort of like track now, and and let's bring it right back, you know, you just do that. I love what you've just said, or what I love about what you just said is it's very, very clear and you're obviously passionate about it, and let's refocus again, you know, so that we're not losing, you know, you can bring bring people on the journey with you, or you can shut it down. Um, but it's like these the yes and the yes and I think we need to sort of like all learn because no one taught me that I learned that through you know leadership training with CTI, you know, all these different bridging set phrases and sentences that you can adapt in the moment that mean that no matter what's coming at you from other people, because if we're in a a meeting together and there's lots of other people in the room, and you know, people get we all get excited and then things start moving, which is all part of the creative process, but it still needs to be almost like funneled through and brought into something that at the end of it it's like okay, we're clear which directions we're going in now, because you don't want to start shutting people's ideas down, but at the same time So we ban the phrase no but because that's the opposite of yes and isn't it?

Using Intuition To Shift Rooms

SPEAKER_00 24:19

And you you hear it with your children, um, but you hear it in the the workplace, but no but, no but and like stop that, it's yes and um, and it's something that yeah, I we probably heard it in the same classroom, um, and that's it, it just becomes part of our vocabulary because we've had to train ourselves to to do that inclusive yet clear communication. Um, and there's that that whole thing about remembering it, it's very much about empowerment, but it's remembering who you are. You were hired in that role for your skill, your professionalism, your expertise, your intelligence, whatever the thing is you were hired for. Um, you know, so know that you already have value and you have something to say. If you've been invited to that meeting, given that project, it's because you're good. You don't need to then apologize, you just need to own it. And if you've got a suggestion, it's because you are stood on a mountain of value and you can, you know, you can see clearly from up there, and you're just offering that because if you don't, a people will not think you've got anything to say, or when you do come out in a maybe untrusting way, you're not backing yourself, well, they won't believe you, they won't trust you, they won't back you. So again, it's like remember that mountain of value that you stand on and use it, embrace it.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

And there's something I'm thinking about about the field of intuition when we're in meetings and we're feeling things, because sometimes we can go we can be going down a certain path with an idea or a conversation, yet the energy in the room feels quite flat, and that's information in that, and I'm always like tuning into what's going on around me as well. And I think women are particularly good at this, like they know the right questions to ask in that can actually drive things into the right area because if that's if you're in a meeting and there's a lot of flatness and you're discussing something and there's no energy there, then the likelihood is what you're talking about is flat, and I think what we all need is to get some more inspiration and passion moving as well. And so how would you name it? Come on, let's I would just name it. I would just say, um, whilst this feels like you know, of still feels like a solid idea, I'm sensing or noticing that everybody's yawning, like it feels like there's a bit of a we like we're in a bit of a flat space. Do we need a break and come back? Or is there something that we should look at here? You know, because if you've got people like doing a lot of that and yawning away, maybe they just need to get out of their seats and they need to go to the toilet and have a coffee or whatever, that's fine. Make sure you name that. But it might be that there's something here with where you're going that there's it's just dead at dead space.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Yeah, there's no energy to it, there's no commitment, there's no vibe going on. Um, it's a tumbleweed moment almost. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

And I think it's just to sense it, sense it and name that it's sensing. That doesn't mean I'm I'm feeling something, I'm gonna I'm gonna give that to you because no one else is feeling it. We're not taking risks in that way, we're just naming what's in the room.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

I think it's different in in Orsk, what we're taught is to literally hand it back and say, I'm noticing some flatness here. What are you noticing? And others might say, Well, I'm noticing bloody bloody brilliant, okay. So, what are we gonna do with that? Or how can we shift it up? And you're passing it back onto the group. And I love that approach because I don't want it to be group think, I'm feeling feeling flat, or no, it's not saying it is flat in here, it's saying I'm noticing this, what are you noticing? And it just brings that awareness back into the space. Um, so I think that's really powerful as well. That's just like totally owning where you are and noticing, and that is part of that mountain of value, all of that intuition and that sensing, it's all part of your value, and that might be the thing you bring.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Yeah, and it's especially important if you are leading that project. So if you're the person in that seat that's got people around you, and you know, you're all collaborating together, and it's your baby that you're you know wanting to sort of take out into the world in some way, then ultimately you want to have the energy right, and you want to make sure that there is enthusiasm and you know, get the data that you need because you're gonna be left to sort of take that forward. So that's that's also really, really important. It's almost like I'm leading this. I want I want to make sure that I'm leading it, you know, from a energized, um, positive place, not from flatness or you know, like yeah, flatness, that's all I can see.

Handling Chronic Interrupters

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Yeah. So shall we talk about getting interrupted? Well, I was gonna say, oh, well, we've just interrupted each other, brilliant. I couldn't have timed it better, but I was just like making that link back because actually we've I suppose what we've been talking about up until now is how do we interrupt the flow or interrupt to get our idea in a really respectful way. But of course, yeah, we get interrupted all ourselves. It's like yeah, that moment where you do you surrender or do you start just kick carrying on? Because I know somebody who will just carry on talking until the other person realizes that they've interrupted, and it's it works for them, that's their technique, it works, but for others, that would just be excruciating. So, yeah, let's talk about how to manage interrupters.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

What's your thoughts? Yeah, something else is because we were coaches and we were taught to blurt. And for me, when we first started, like when I first learnt that coaching skill, like it was like you know, you your clients talking away about something and you're feeling whatever you're feeling, and you're thinking, and it's like interrupt them because they're going down a path and flattering blurt, blurt and interrupt them. And for me, I was like, Oh my god, that is so incredibly rude to stop somebody in the flow of a conversation is is and then I realised that it was in total service, depends what it is.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah, and yeah, because they're just on a um um monotone talking about something that's got no depth or anything, and we can notice it because we're like, Why are you even you know, where which realm are you in right now? Because they're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

And what's that got to do with the topic that we're working on? And I think you know, every moment is precious in meetings, in coaching sessions, like and anything you do with every moment is precious, and so it's that like make the energy really good until the last second of that conversation. I I'm all about that, and you're I know you're about that because you've got great energy. So it's like knowing that every conversation, every word can lead us somewhere, and knowing when to interrupt and when to keep talking, and I think that's really really important, and it's like flowing with that. But yeah, I mean I've definitely been interrupted many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times, and I've also been ignored, you know, in boardrooms and basically been talking and like nobody's responding. So that that was earlier on in my career when I was in my twenties. It was really quite painful, but it rerooted me in a way that made me go, I can't work in these environments. I knew it, and so I found other ways for me to be honoured and respected in runes, but you know, uh still uh if it's happening to you, it's happening and it and it can be, it can really, really erode your confidence. Um, because you you know, you're like we all want to be heard, don't we? We've all got this natural thing inside us that we want to be heard, and so I think acknowledging how we're feeling is really really important, is number one, and number two being like if your voice is not being heard, it's not being heard. I think we have to be quite truthful about that, and then what would you do, Lucy, to sort of bring it back?

SPEAKER_00 31:28

So I I get quite playful with it, um, and you know, I I might look at them directly with a smile, or even like a bit of a matronry matronly look, and just say something like, uh, excuse me, uh I'm gonna finish my point, or then you know, uh, is it okay if I carry on? You know, and do it in a almost a bit of a sarky way, just to name it like you've just interrupted me and get the attention back on me. So that's like one of the ways, and that's just my style. I was grought up in a very sarky house, so I'm quite good at doing low-level interruptions of the interrupter, and just like and like I said, it's it's how you match it with the body language and the tone, so it's not belittling them, it's just like naming it. So, yeah, I might have a little bit of fun with them. Um, and others, you know, I know and I've seen uh have just been really direct and just say, uh please let me finish my point, and then I'll happily let you share your thoughts, and that's their energy because they've got a lot more of a steady, calm, authoritative energy. Um, and you know, others who have just said, Oh, excuse me, I'm not quite finished yet, and they do it in a bit of a tongue-in-cheek way. Um, so there are lots of different ways that you naturally can do it, but it's about naming it in the moment, um, you know, and even adding on something like I'm still speaking, I will hand over to you in a moment, and then you can add your point and just being really yeah, affirmative and setting some boundaries. Um, and then I've seen other people do it in a lot more casual way and just say, Oh, just hold that thought. Um, I know it's gonna be brilliant, but I just want to wrap this idea up first. So, again, just do it in a much more of a relaxed way. But again, you've got to find your style, you've got to find your words and practice them out loud because the next time, you know, we'll give you the words here, you can write them all down, but unless you practice saying them out loud, it doesn't matter how many times you're in that moment of being interrupted, those words won't come to your head because you're in that fight, flight-free stage.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yeah, absolutely. And I I do feel like you know, there is something to say, I am noticing that you keep speaking over me, or you keep, you know, interjecting when I'm, you know, do my bit. That could be done individually, one-on-one, through a s a separate conversation. It doesn't necessarily have to be in front of everyone in a room, but there is something about calling it out or going to someone and saying, This person, this is what keeps happening, you know, go above the person if you're not gonna get an ally when you help have that conversation. So there are many ways to call something out, direct or indirect, but it does need to be called out because the likelihood is it's happening in other spaces and other areas as well, and you know, I feel like I get really well listened to in my work, but you know, at home sometimes I've got a seven-year-old, you know, she's not listening to me, you know, and you'll hear me saying in the house, nobody's listening to me, listen to me, nobody's listening to me, you know, like that kind of thing, and it sort of makes me laugh a little bit because it's like, okay, well, I I get to practice all the time what it feels like to not be listened to. Um, and I'll say to my husband, Okay, you're not listening to me. This is very important. Let me just express what I need to express, and then you can, you know, share back what you've heard. And he's like, Okay, and he knows what to do now, so we go through that little dance, but it's really, really important because otherwise I'm gonna get really, really, really frustrated, and the more frustrated I get, it will turn into anger, you know. So I have it in my home life, um, not in my professional life, other people will have it the other way around, you know, and and it's like, but it always humbles me back into oh, this is what it feels like to not be listened to, um, even though most of it is totally unintentional, you know, but it's still I'm still having that same experience in my body. So for me, it's just about putting that back on the table.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Got a great tip for you. Um, and I didn't get this till my girls were in their um their teenage years, and it used to drive me mad because the dinner'd be on the table, they wouldn't come down, I'd shout them, nothing. So in the end, I just got a load of well, uh we have Alexa's, but there's other smart speakers, and I use it as a tanoy and it drumps in, and you can use all these little like there's a fart noise, kisses, uh belches. So I'd always start with a few of those and then just say, Dinner's ready in the highest pitched voice. It works. So sometimes you can use technology to get attention, interrupt, even have a buzzer in the room go, we've got a bell, we have got a bell downstairs, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

But um, it's not so much around the table stuff, it's more just everyday. But it's fine because it it's humbling, and I think being humbled is important, and it also just reminds me of life, you know, and this is this is part of everyday life without getting too sort of up my own, you know, like too fussed about it. Um, I think it's important to remember that we have to constantly keep working on our voices and calling this stuff out, whether it's unintentionally or un or intentionally. This is the job of any woman in the world right now.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Um and also as mothers of daughters, it's just reminding them that they too have a voice, even though it's the most frustrating thing sometimes when they're yabbering on or answering back. But actually, uh, yeah, that whole thing of uh be seen and not heard is not at all relevant in in our households when we're raising young children. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Um, you know, and the other the other thing to add in if somebody isn't listening to you, then you ask them a question about it, you know, like just put it back on them and watch them squirm, and that's really, really powerful. It's like, what did you think about that that idea that I just shared? You know, and then hold the silence, don't say anymore, and watch watch them, and you'll know if they're listening or not. So that's a really powerful way of just redirecting it back to the person, and they're gonna know quite quickly that you're the person that will call them out without you know, that's a very indirective way of calling to the other.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

I already feel like the shame of being called out like that in uh school, chatting with my friends, and then the teacher is saying, Yes, I want your thoughts on that, Lucy. Oh god, yeah, it's it's mortifying you pay attention, then yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

It is that, and it I mean it happened at school. I did um I was a secret reader and I went in and I read the story, and I could see that the kids were sort of like zoning out a little bit in places, and then the teacher said at the end the final page was very much about like it's okay to be different and to know that you're different and all this. It was a lovely story, and she said, I love the you know, the teachers like I loved the you know the message of this book. What was it, children? And I was I just sort of like smiled and thought, brilliant, you know, like what a great way of just like putting it back onto them because were they listening with it? It doesn't really it was the end of the day, but it it made me smile.

Unwanted Attention And Clear Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 38:02

It takes time they know that they're gonna get questioned on it, they'll be more yeah, pay attention. So let's go on to the one uh because this is the one where we don't want attention. Uh, this is about unwanted attention that we get, um, whether it's out there in general public or whether it is in the workplace. Um, because let's face it, sisters, we've all had that unwanted attention or that unwanted touch or being physically moved by somebody putting their hand around their waist or coming over your shoulder and reading what's on your laptop or tablet. It just makes me have the erk. Yeah. Um, yeah, go on, Karen.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

I'm a really big fan of hand movements as well, because I feel like we can do something like that, the stop side. I use this all the time, and I also use it with the dog, you know, and I'll do that down. I mean, I'm not gonna do that to someone who's giving me unwanted attention, that's just gonna get confusing. But certainly that I do use it, and I've said I've you know, like you were I've noticed you you're coming too close. Take one more step and I'm going to call the police. I've used that and I've used the hand, but it's the hand that they're have you done that in the workplace. I've not done it in the workplace, I've done it out on the street. Um but if it you know when I go back into my old career when I was like in buildings late, um, you know, I was what I was getting public transport home when I lived in London and things like that. But I was in the office a lot on my own at night, you know, working late and and different things. And I was trying to remember, was I ever on my own? And I think there was times, yeah, there was definitely times when I was on my own, um, but nobody ever physically came towards me. But I that but that's what I would say, regardless of where we are. Like, I think there's a lot of power in that because it's just reminding someone that this is your space around here, and it doesn't matter where you are, if someone's coming towards you and it's inappropriate in some way, regardless. I mean, like, that's as powerful as a no, like no, really loud. That's it, really. But depends on that, there's layers to this thing stuff, isn't there? We always know there's layers, and I think that's what we feel.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

The hand thing is also quite powerful because I've had people put their hands on my shoulders and I've literally physically moved their hand off my shoulder, so there are ways of doing it which don't even need massive confrontation, that it's just a this is a no just by using body language. Um, but in the workplace, especially when you know that unwanted attention might even show up as banter or um jokes that are just really inappropriate, it might be the physical touching, somebody getting too close to you or making offers to you, which now we know is classed as sexual harassment, and companies have to um take steps, and there is a you know, if they don't, they can be cross-prosecuted. But in that moment, when you find that unwanted attention of whatever form, we need to be able to equip ourselves to deal with it, and it is you know, it's different in a bar where you can tell somebody to F off. Um, slightly different at work where we're still supposed to act slightly professional, but we still need to have the same words uh or the same meaning of the words to be able to empower ourselves. Um and you know, I've I've had times where people have I mean, we're in a works meeting and they're making jokes about sex or about well, actually it's always about sex, but they're doing it in a way that's slightly under the radar. We know exactly what it means. Um, and I have responded with I just want to keep this conversation strictly professional, yeah. Or please can we raise the bar on this? I don't want to have those kind of conversations and just and it is a request in the first instance. I think if they carry on, then it's a very different Lucy that shows up. But that first one is a request, and it might come with a please, it's never an apology, but there's there's definitely um a request.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

For me, it's just about naming the uncomfortableness. I would always do that if I felt uncomfortable in some way. I always put my hand on my chest, but if I because it's the violation, like there's something in me that goes, Oh, that feels like a violation, and I know that the first thing I'm gonna feel is that squirm, and I've learned to trust the squirm, you know, and now I can articulate it, whereas I couldn't articulate it before, so I really hope that there's people listening that you know, men or women that are going, Oh my gosh, that's exactly how I feel. I go into that meeting, and they're those people in that room, or that one person in that room, and they always say something, and it makes me feel deeply uncomfortable and like I want to squirm. And actually, what's being activated is fight, flight, and freeze. Um but we've got a we're in a meeting, so we've got we've got I've got to be in the room with that person, and so it's like when you say that I feel uncomfortable, my request is that we mean your way of saying it is really, really, you know, strictly pro professional is I don't think I'd ever say that, but it's what it's it's finding a way to say that that is much more like a little bit softer for me, you know. So I request that we focus on this project. It's probably I'd probably bring it back into the work so that it's like we're here for a reason, you know, or I would get really fidgety. Sometimes I'm starting to fidget, and when I get into that fidget place, it's like my body is like wanting to leave. I'll be like, okay, we we've got you know, just bring time back. I think time is a great way and say, Right, we've got this much time, we've got a lot to do. Can we get down to it? Um, but I think that that's definitely the way that I would handle that. I mean, I unfortunately with this sort of thing, it tends to be when other people are not around, yeah. Um, and sometimes it can be you know through a phone or something like that where you're getting inappropriate comments. But I mean at the end of the day, you can always take that to HR. Yeah, well then you've got evidence it was on your own. You've got evidence, it's just the best. It's just if it's someone who's in a senior position who's doing it, you know. Then that can be women as well. I mean, I've had situations with bosses where they've been highly inappropriate, um, not in a sexual domain, but in an aggressive sort of manner, and I have then gone to HR. And said, you know, I I'm concerned and I'm letting you know, and then it's always do you want to do you want to proceed with this? And you know, I've never really proceeded with things, but I've let them know. Um just as a way of sort of like, hey, I'm letting you know that this is going on. It's a difficult one though. It's such a long time ago since I was in like that cut sort of corporate world.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

I'd hope that people now would take it seriously and say, you know, this is the next steps, rather than putting it back on to convict, um, that it would be approached slightly differently. But that's all I can hope. And I've also said things like, you know, um, oh, you're giving me the ick when it's been a bit more of a banter-ish kind of uh more relaxed environment, um, or just said, oh, really? And just give them that like, really, that phrase really, I I've taught that to my children because it could be used in so many different ways, as uh, I don't approve, as in like, really? Really? You know what I mean? You can use it in so many different ways, um, but it's just knowing that whatever the facial expression, you're just questioning their judgment at that time, and then they usually correct themselves. Um, it and when somebody comes too close, you just you can just say, Whoa, that's a bit close for comfort, mate, and you know, just use it harmlessly, or you can just say simply, can you step back? You're in my personal space, and or you can just say, get back, you know. Again, it's all about the tone and knowing the relationship, but you've got to name it that they are too close for comfort. Yeah, and if they do then turn around and try and gaslight you and make you the the one that's got the issue, which often happens, um, then you know, they might say, Look, oh, I was only a joke and stop being so sensitive. And you can just reply with, I'm glad we are clear about my boundaries going forward, or I'm glad you've got the message, or just name it, or just say, You might be joking, I'm not joking, and just end it because obviously that's their uncomfortableness, they're trying to brush it off and minimize it, but you just need to hold firm. However, you do that, you just need to respond.

Safety At Work And Travelling Alone

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Absolutely. I agree with everything. And I mean, I'm even thinking about you know, like women being in the office on their own at night. I mean, it's sort of bringing me back into that space as well. Because if I I look back on my career and I'm like, oh my god, I took so many risks, you know, because what what are you gonna do? Like you're walking into car parks late at night and your keys and your, you know, your mobile in your in your hand, and you know, and then being like in offices where people could come in who were from other off, you know, other shared offices I'm talking about now, you know, where they can't actually walk in, the door's not locked, and you're in the office on your own. And and now I'm kind of looking back and going, Oh god, that's like really like deeply, deeply uncomfortable. And actually, there should be procedures that really, really, you know, make sure that women are more protected when they're working late. Because let's face it, we live in a country where it's dark in the winter time at four o'clock.

unknown 46:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

So that's most women. If there's a few of you, it's not you know, and you're working, you're going together, and that's all okay. But if it's just one woman, um, I feel like the the time that we live in right now is is not a time where that should be um, you know, that there just needs to be more, I think, more safety procedures in place for women full stop.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

And it's not just about Dave and one of my clients is currently working on a um solo traveller um policy because they actually went out to their teams and said, you know, um, from um equality, inclusion, diversity, mindset, what are we missing? And they said, actually, we need uh we need guidance on how do we travel, because they have to travel obviously a lot with work. Um, and so they're going away and doing that, and they're saying, you know, about what kind of accommodation, making sure that um you get a reputable taxi company, um, that you're in a well-lit area, etc. etc. But I always remember getting off a plane at Birmingham Airport, and it was probably about half 11 midnight, maybe, and I walked into the multi-story, it was probably on level four, and I was absolutely petrified. And I'd run out of battery as well on my phone. Um, and I don't think I've ever sat felt so scared and vulnerable. And I got in my car and buckled it in because I just thought, well, anybody could have seen me walking all the way and followed me. So yeah, there's something there about knowing that well, I think this is why I'm I'm giving these phrases, these powerful phrases, because actually we all know that we will be in a position where somebody says something inappropriate or does something inappropriate. Um, and we need to have some of these skills and these phrases to be able to deal with them in the moment because uh in that moment you are scared. And your brain does shut down.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Yeah, there's a different levels of it, isn't there? There's the there's the people who just want to talk over you or just got something they just want to be talking, and then there's the ones that want to harm and um you know are predators. And we I think if you don't speak up for the occasions when someone's just you know wants to have their voice, then you've got probably got less chance of speaking up when a predator um actually does approach you, if and when on all of that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

We know what the world that we're living in right now, so we have to be able to do both and be armed for both, and it's almost like your personal self-defense, isn't it? We used to go to classes and it wasn't to actually use it, it was just to have the power and knowledge that you could if you needed it. It's the same with what we're trying to give key phrases and tools and tone of voice, practice it.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Yeah, and I mean stop and know, you know, like it we sometimes we just gotta go into the into pure basics, but I think there's something about the voice that lets someone know that you're not gonna um you you're not gonna go without a fight that's really important, and that's a different energy to something in a boardroom, you know? Yeah, but ultimately we're still saying no to something, so it it's the there are nuances here, but I think you know, if if I was to do it all again, I would be going to self-defence classes and you know, really, really taking that quite seriously as a way to back up my voice and my sort of um belief in my own power because I think that's what we're yeah, it's it's being confident in your body, confident in your heart and your mind, having all the tools there, and confident enough to know when to interrupt and end this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Absolutely, because otherwise we'll we'll talk for hours. Um, so yeah, it's about your voice, everybody. It's a powerful tool, you've just got to be able to find your words, and every time you choose a confident phrase over an unapologetic one, um you hold yourself, you trust yourself, and an inner power comes out of you. Uh, but you need to practice those, you need to have your toolkit available. And look, don't expect to get it spot on every time. Um, you know, it takes a long time to unlearn these phrases and these behaviours, and it takes practice. So start small. Pick one phrase from our list today, try it in different tones, try it in different, you know, um pitches, see what happens, and maybe you will ban the word just. Maybe that's the thing. Or stop apologising, just notice how often you apologize. Um, maybe that's the homework that you've got to do, but start small.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Thank you so much for joining us today on the Say It Sister podcast. If this episode has resonated with you, please share it with a friend, a colleague, or a sister who needs to hear it. Leave us a review on your favourite podcast app and hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. Until next time, stand tall, speak clearly, and say it sister.