Say it Sister...

What Changes When Shame Switches Sides

• Lucy Barkas & Karen Heras Kelly • Season 2 • Episode 32

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Week after week, century after century, stories about sexual violence continue, so we are talking solutions, and why even years of healing does not make it painless. We focus on hope and practical action, from women gathering and speaking out to the steps men can take to stop other men causing harm. 

•Naming fear, anger and shaking as normal trauma responses 
•Why ignoring abuse memories can make us ill over time 
•Finding hope in women validating each other publicly 
•The rise of testimony threads and naming abusers databases 
•Claire’s Law and Sarah’s Law and why convictions are rare 
•Libel threats as a common tactic to silence women 
•Petitions, advocacy groups and writing to your MP 
•Women’s circles and community as a protective antidote to isolation 
•Inner peace practices including prayer, church, nature and quiet 
•EFT tapping, counselling and holistic trauma-informed support 
•Journalling, hypnosis and other ways to rebuild a sense of safety 
•What men can do: call it out, check your mates, build empathy, amplify women 
•How to talk to your partner and when to seek another outlet 




Webinar : Empowering Women Leaders. 5 strategies to close the gender gap. Join us.


SPEAKER_01

We're looking for solutions. We're looking for solutions by women, for women, we're looking at individual feeling. And we're looking for positive actions that men can take, you know, to basically stop other men abusing. Yes, raping, yeah, abusing, hurting women and other men. So before we get going, it has been a few weeks since this story landed. So I want to check in with all of you listeners just to be able to internally name what you're feeling right now. And before we start the conversation, I want to just check in with you, Karen. How are you today?

SPEAKER_00

Shaky. I'm a little bit better now because we've had a bit of a pre-conversation. But it's definitely brought up a lot of micro stories and big stories too. These stories are my life experiences. So it's definitely affected me in a very deeply intense way, even though I've done years and years and years and years and years of deep healing around the area of sex and sexual crime. So it really takes me into a place where I go, God, this just does not get any easier. Whilst I I can go away and do the healing work and I can regulate my nervous system, and I know that I have a huge power inside me and a huge capability that I can cope with a lot and I can support others to manage theirs. So I know all of that is true, and yet it takes me down. And talking about it, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be talking about it. I want to just get on with my life and pretend it's not happening. But that's not the life that I have chosen for myself as a survivor. Like I knew that that wasn't going to work for me, and I did try it. I tried to ignore and it made me very ill. So I do want to sort of say that out loud, you know, for any women that are, you know, listening and thinking, Oh, you know, I don't want to go there, I don't want to go there. It will make you very, very sick in the long run. Um, I was lucky that the sickness came quite quick and I had to deal with it. But when I looked at my life, I realised that I'd hidden so many things and ignored so many things from myself that I wouldn't want I was too scared to go there. And you know, sometimes it takes something to open the door back and go back and do the work. That was definitely my experience. So I want to say that if you're listening, if you're looking in and you're thinking, I can't ignore this, perhaps there is something out there for you that requires your attention. And through love and compassion and doing the work with experts, there is we're gonna talk about support, aren't we, later? That you will be able to create a sense of acceptance, a sense of relief, but you'll never forget it, and that's what I want to say. And I don't think we're designed to forget the things that happen to us that uh change us, change our lives. So that's where I am. It's a lot of words from me. Lucy, where are you?

Finding Hope In Collective Sharing

SPEAKER_01

Um I'm in a space of I would say a bit more hope than I had before. Um I'm still very angry. I am a bit shaky as well because memories and feelings keep popping up, and rather than uh suppressing them, I'm I'm meeting them, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I haven't seen or experienced or remembered you for a little while. So yeah, I'm letting them come up. Uh, but after we recorded episode one, the intention was to record episode two, and I just said I can't do this, I need time out, and I feel like that's that's where I've been quite a lot over the last few weeks. It's like step in, but then I have to retreat and process and and look after myself. But the hope comes because there's this collective energy that I feel building. Um women are sharing, they are making suggestions for solutions. Um, and every story that is being heard is being, you know, being expressed, should I say, is being heard and validated. Um, yes, there are the trolls, yes, there are the um men and women, but mainly men who are just getting stuck on the well, was it views or was it people, or da-da-da, who cares? The women who are stepping forward and saying, even just putting a love heart um or you know, a caring emoji next to somebody's comment where they've said this happened to me, or I get this, it's that's what gives me hope. The women are gathering, and I know personally that when I try and do this life thing on my own, everything feels harder. But when I see other women supporting me, talking about their experience, it makes me braver to be able to share my own story. And although it's it's been tough remembering stuff from my past, um, I don't feel alone in it anymore, and so that's why I would say overarchingly there is hope, and so with that in mind, I wanted us to spend a little bit of time just talking about some of the things that women collectively are doing or suggesting or um gathering to do in this horrible, horrible time that we are living through.

Naming Abuse And Speaking Publicly

SPEAKER_00

I would say I love this about you because you know I'm a deep feeler, I go not that you're not because you are too, but I go into the feelings and I stay there like in the washing machine for quite a long time, and I come out the other side and I get into action, but you're like you always bring I mean I'm an optimist, but you're supercharged optimism, like you're you go even beyond what I go beyond, and I love that about you, and I love being in the space with you for that because you'll always go there and find you know these glimmers that are there that are all around us, and I you inspire me for that, and I'm grateful to always say thank you for that because it this is so needed in the world. We do need to talk about the glimmers of hope, the glimmers of positive action, and how you know how we're changing things and how things yeah, how let's just stick with that, how we're changing things. So come on, Lucy, load me up.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so um, and I will just say thank you for that. Um, I've always been told that I am one of those natural leaders, but it's because I lead people and myself and everything that I'm doing towards hope because that there's always got to be a better way. But what we're now seeing is other people starting to believe it too. Um, so some of the things that I have seen happening, gathering, um, are well, there was a call for uh a database to actually let's name our abusers. Now that's good if you know the person's name, but even just going on there anonymously and saying this happened to me and just stating it out there for the record is incredibly empowering. And rather than having 62 million views of stuff, there's there may just be 60 million, 62 million testimonies of this happened to me in my lifetime. And there was one where and so the a website was set up, um, it was very much in the the states, um, because it said, you know, you're that it was literally name, city, or town, and state where it happened, um, so that people might be able to go back and say, Am I dating this man? Is this somebody who I've like swiped right on? Um, now in the UK, we've already got a database, but only for convictions. So there's Claire's law and Sarah's law. One is for men who have been convicted of hurting children, and the other one is for men who have hurt women. Um, so you can already go and look at that, but actually, we know that a lot of these uh assaults are happening when we're asleep and we don't even know about it. And a lot of women do not report um.

SPEAKER_00

And so there is that side of it, you know, like that lives inside each woman, I think, when you don't go to the police and you don't um you know go there and say this has happened to me. But there are so many reasons why women don't. So let's give let's add some compassion in here. Um if you think that it's one in three in the UK, that's the stat. We know it's much more than that. Yeah. Um, you know, so so there's that side of it as well, isn't there, where these these names are not going to the police. Um, and then to get a conviction it's also extremely hard.

SPEAKER_01

So, which which is why it's been really empowering and hopeful to see. I mean, um I think I mean it's it's happening over all of the social media platforms, but uh over on um threads, there's been lots and lots of different threads forming where um women, predominantly women, have started to just say either a name, um, or they've been omitting the name and saying, I was 22 and this happened, I was walking home and this happened. So they're starting to share their stories. And the reason why this gives me so much hope is because before we were silent about it, we were scared to speak up because you know how the press, the courts, the police, that they're conditioned to go after the women. Oh, she's a she's just after the money, oh, she's a home wrecker, oh she's jealous, that's why she's trying to ruin a man's life. Whereas now we're just saying, no, we don't. In fact, we don't trust the legal system to convict this men, but we're just gonna name our abuse. Yeah. Um, so that gives me hope because then it's like, okay, there's the 60 million, 60 million over there. Here's another 60 million that actually is empowering for women. So um it's entirely up to any of you listeners what you do with your information because it's yours. But what I would would say is, you know, go have a look if you feel strong enough because these stories are actually incredibly empowering, and one reply really, really stood out for me, and it was an 82-year-old woman, and she said, You generation inspire me so much. She said, Back in my day when it happened to me, the the last thing you would ever have done is spoken to anybody, and she says, and this is the first time I've ever said out loud it happened to me, and she said, and I was 19, and I was whatever the story was. Um, and she just said thank you. And I thought, wow, this isn't just about the young women, it isn't about Gen X women just like coming out and fighting. This is impacting women who have lived for 80 years on this planet and have never told a soul, and the support that she got and all the love hearts and the the we hear you, you're so brave, blah de blah. It was amazing. So, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00

I'm just thinking that when I had a quick look and I saw that Donald Trump was on there and I I whooped. Um, and I didn't go any further than that, but I was like, it made me it did something inside me that was like, and I've been having a lot of those experiences recently where I see something positive. This week's been harder for that because I've really struggled this week, but in the weeks before, um I'm having these like crazy emotional outbursts of things, and there's a lot of happiness, and there's been a lot of joy and just celebration, and it's like, and also I've seen things that I've thought that's really beautiful, and I've just sat on the sofa in front of everyone and started crying, and then going, look how beautiful this is, you know. And I'm showing like my husband something, and he's like, You alright? And I'm like, Yes, you know, like it's this is me, this is the real me when I'm unfiltered. I am highly emotional, and if I see something, you're gonna you're gonna know I have enjoyed it. You're also gonna know if I'm angry. Um, so I I whooped at that and I was like, Yes, you know, like we all know he's guilty. Um, you know, but to see his name on there was just like a moment of like I don't yeah. I I I I don't I'm saying enjoying it. It wasn't joy, but it was just pure like, thank god, you know, like his name he's been named, even though we know he's been named because he's in the Epstein Files, um, and there's countless.

SPEAKER_01

But it was like it's really claiming it. It was like, yeah, actually, Donald Trump was my abuser. Um, and but it was the there were the amount that were like I was in um a sorriety house, or I was at a frat party, or I was walking home after visiting my nan. Um and it just goes to show that every single woman on there has done the things that every single woman does. We walk home, we you know, um visit a garage in the evening to get fuel, we go to a party, we have a we go on holiday with friends, we you know get into taxis with people. These are just normal everyday things, and so therefore we feel a bit of shame when it happens to us. We're like, oh my god, what what did I do? Why me? Was I stupid? And actually, no, there was an abuser who saw you and took an opportunity. None of this is with you, and I think Giselle um saying shame must switch sides has ignited something within women. Um, so I will say that there is so much positive content out there on social media for you to be able to feel like you're not alone. And even if you don't comment, just reading some of these comments is phenomenal. And of course, we did uh we are seeing like people saying, Oh, well, you can get arrested for slander or um liable for writing that stuff. We're like, oh yes, another way to silence the women. Come on, let's get it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we've been that I've talked about this before in another podcast. That's exactly what happened to me. You know, when I confronted my abuser, and what I got back was, um, this is liable, um, I will sue you, you're making it up. It's because you're having infertility issues. I mean, you name it, it got thrown in my direction. And part of me was like, God, yeah, it could. You could go to the police and and say that I'm creating slander for him. He could. It was like, if you continue, this is what's gonna happen. Um, and I was scared about that, because I knew this guy was a lunatic by now. But then I was like, You go to the police, you're gonna be um you're gonna be it's gonna be very much out what you've just done. So you can trade you can change.

SPEAKER_01

And that will carry him around, yeah. That would carry him around, that seeded out forever.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and not only that, a lot of people knew what he'd done because I told a lot of people and the word got out, and the word got out around his business, and the word got out around the industry that he works in, because people made sure it did. So, yeah, so it's one of those, isn't it? But the all of that stuff that we that gets sort of sent back to us, it's almost like, yeah, they could do that, and yet I'm still gonna stand in my truth, I'm still gonna stand in my power.

Law Limits And Small Signs Of Change

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think this is what gave me hope. It was like, well, actually, if there were, let's just say there were 62 million um stories on this database. Are there gonna be 62 million libel cases going through the courts? I doubt it. You know, it's like, go on, threat, threaten us, but we've there are more of us than you almost. Um, and then there was also the fact that one one of the women had written was like, Do you know what? We've tried being silent, we tried doing the the be safe and not go down the legal route. Um, none of that's worked because there's 62 million of you downloading this stuff. Yeah, um, there's also um another um TikTok trend with men who are showing videos of what they do if their women refuse sex. Um and some of them have got like mannequins and they're stabbing them or they're beating them up and punching them. And this is like quite a trend on on over on TikTok. So again, it's like okay, if your partner has abused you, name it, say it, do it, you know, even if it's um just telling a friend or telling their future partner, just get the message out that these these people are not safe however you do it. But there's also um I don't know whether you saw in the news a couple of weeks ago that the first ever uh conviction, it was in Scotland, um, for a man being sent down for um oh well it wasn't murder, manslaughter, or it should be woman's slaughter. And he got off yesterday. Let's name it woman's slaughter.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, he got it, he got it off, he got off yesterday.

SPEAKER_01

I saw that, and there's no, this is a different one. So the this in Scotland he got convicted and for woman slaughter, yeah. Um but the guy in England he got off. Um, but let's face it, no every single woman knows he did do those things. There just wasn't enough evidence to be able to say without reasonable doubt. Um, but the more and more we are highlighting, and you know, the Crown Prosecution Service are trying to put these cases forward, it gives us hope because it's not just women talking about it um openly, without shame, and saying this happened to me. It's also the system saying, and if this does happen, we are going to show you that if you harass people, you will end up in court. If you uh harass somebody at work, you your company will be fined and measures put in place. Uh, if you drive your partner to suicide just to escape you, you will be done for man stroke woman slaughter. Yeah. So think I feel like this is why I do have hope, and it's fuelled with a lot of anger, but things are starting to change. And there are lots of petitions out there that you can go and um sign um on all kinds of women's matters. But actually, that all that means is you just put your name on a on a link to say, yes, support this, or no, I don't support that. So that's like almost like the easiest thing that you can do. Yeah, um, but one another thing that because you know I'm a well, we're both a little bit witchy, um, but I've seen calls for global prayers or spells or calls to release burn stuff at you know on certain days or at certain times. And again, that's creating some kind of energetic shift as well.

Women Gathering As A Form Of Power

SPEAKER_00

I say a prayer every single night before I go to bed because I'm desperate, and when I get desperate, I pray. And it's not even that I have a set religion or anything like that anymore, it's just you know, God's spirit source, whatever I don't even care what the word is, but I but it's like that universal energy of love. I pray to that and I pray and I just say, please help us, like we are so lost. Please help, you know, these men to make better decisions, please help them to connect back to their hearts, please help them to feel um the devastation of what they're creating. Like I I get into it, and because it I'm like I really, really want the world to be differently, and I think this is where I get into this very shaky, um, despairing energy, which I have to feel it to release it. So I have to go into it. I cannot ignore it. And I do go into it and then I get out the other side, but it can take me a bit of time. But if I can sort of add my hope and turn it back into something else, and that night prayer for me is becoming a a solid place to go. Um you know and I'm I've even been to church the last two I've gone back to church and I went with my mum the last two Sundays. I started Easter Sunday, not because I'm um particularly religious because I'm really not these days, but it's to go into a space where there's a lot of silence, there's a lot of reverence, people are praying, um there is hope in the messaging, there's incense being wafted around, I like the smells, you know, and and just to be there next to my mum, which I feel is very, very important. There's a significance in that for me because she's getting older and older and older, and being like for this one hour we are together, she's very religious, I can support her in that, and we we I get to go and do whatever I need to do internally, and it's becoming like it's just two weeks in, and I feel like this is a positive movement for me. Um because it it gives me space, it gives me quiet, it gives me the sense of zoning out sometimes as well and being away from the home. Um so I've I've started to do that, and it and I can't quite believe I'm saying it out loud because it it feels quite abstract still, but yeah, anywhere I can go to now where I can find that sense of peace, where I can feel like I need it. We all need that peace. Bigger than myself, connect to something bigger than me, ask for something that's bigger and more important than me, and really get into that. So I'm playing around a little bit with it. Trying different things as you know, but um that's been something that has has has really helped me just to be like get out of your like get out of your pit, Karen. Get out of your pit, feel the feelings, and get out there and and start um connecting to something that is going to lift me and hopefully have that we talk about the ripple effect all the time, don't we? Like, I want to be part of the positive ripple effect, and I do everything that I can to be part of that.

SPEAKER_01

Um, equally the women's uh peer circles that we do through Wise Women Lead is exactly that. It's that gathering, creating that safe space where women can gather and go through that processing, say what needs to be said, um, and then shift something. So when they leave the session, they just feel some, yeah, something has transformed within them. And I go to my own women's circle um every month. Um, I also go for my you know, my nature walks, often alone in you know, complete silence. Um, so whether it's a church or you know, I I absolutely advocate getting a women's circle together, even whether I don't know, it's a bit of prosecco or it's a bit of knitting, uh, walking, hiking, dancing, whatever your thing is, you we need women to gather. Um standing by your mum is just beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it for me it's it's I mean, that is one just one form of expression uh of how I can, you know, like connect in words, but be next to her. So it I'd go anywhere really. If you wanted to sit on a part bench, I could still I could do that for an hour with her and be again equally get what I would I get in that space. Um, so that's important. But the women's group thing is really important because it's that loneliness, like, is it only me? You know, and when we have the conversations as we know, because we've got each other, we realise that we've we've been through exactly the same things, and we are struggling with exactly the same things. And sometimes we've got antidotes for each other because we get further along the journey, um, or we just know something, and you know, and that really, really helps. And other times we do it, we do the work together and we're both at exactly the same place, and it's really amazing what happens because if I say something and then you go, that exactly happened to me, um, and I go, Oh my god, it's not just me. And the thing with us in our work is that we can hold space, we can create the right environment, a sense of safety, a sense of wonder, or you might say, you know, a sense of like creating visions, and so when we all plug into that, something miraculous happens and you can feel it. And when we know that we're feeling it, we know we're in our bodies, and that's where our power lies. And so, you know, I'm saying to all of the women listening, go find your tribe, go find your group. If you haven't, if you don't know, get in touch with us and come and join our groups because this is where we start to feel a true sense of woman, who we are, what we're here to do, um, looking at the past, coming into the present, and then shaping the future in a different way. Like, I don't know anything else that is more important right now in the world. Absolutely, yeah. I do want to talk about something else.

SPEAKER_01

No, all I was gonna say was, you know, the the fact is we know how powerful this is, but actually, um, the systems knew this too, which is why it became illegal for women to gather, um, and then all the stigma around it. And so um actually it's just really badass to to meet as women um and just give a big F you to the system that tries to stop us. So that's just me, uh, because I always feel so empowered and like, yes, this is for all of my ancestors that were never allowed to do this. I get to do this, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um our inner peace is vital that we can find a place of inner peace however we find it, and if we are cultivating that in a really conscious way and we're doing it with others, that's a huge ripple. And I want to say that that is non-negotiable and that is not you know anyone's right to take that from us. They will try and take it from us and they will succeed sometimes. That it will be gone because something's happened. However, when we return, we return and we do the work, we acknowledge what's happening, and we go deeper and deeper, and we we we transform. Um, our emotions want to move, you know, they don't want to stay stuck in our bodies. Um, that's why we sometimes we get flashes and we don't know what to do with the flash, like it might be a flash of anger or jealousy or whatever it might be, and we don't know what to do with it, and so we're like, oh, and then we get rigid and tight, but it's coming up, it needs to it needs permission and space to go, to be moved through and to get the message and to move out. So this is also really really important, and it's what the system, the patriarchal system, does not want us to do because women who can handle their emotions, who know what to do with them, who know how to get the messages, who know how to um form groups together and organise themselves. Well, that's a threat to them. So, you know, and I also want to say like inner peace and happiness is the other theme that I see coming through a lot where it's like I'm just not happy. Like, I need I I have I've lost something in myself, I'm not happy. And um, it can feel a little bit frivolous in the world when we've got wars going on, we've got abuse happening. But there's always been wars going on, nothing changes. Yes, there has. And and so there is something again about like plugging back in, plugging back into those higher senses, those higher frequencies and emotions, that that it's like, who are you not to do that? Because this is also part of our makeup as human beings that we get to choose and we get to create and we get to um you know wake up, wake up. It's really, really important. And I and I just refuse now. I will go into despair, but you you can guarantee that I'll do the work that gets me out of despair, gets me creating, moving in a different way, and gets me back out up and out so that I can uh live my very, very, very, very best expression that day. Um, that's something that I promise myself, and that's something that I I will continue to do, and no one's gonna take it.

Tools For Healing And Support Routes

SPEAKER_01

Say it, sister. That's all I've got to say to that. Absolutely. Um let's just touch a little bit on um because we've talked about the groups and gathering as women, and um so powerful, but there is a lot of support that one can do to help their individual journey so that they can get to that space where they know how to release and how to get creative and how to move. Um, now I know for you you did lots of trauma-informed therapy, um, and you do tapping. Do you want to just speak to that briefly before we then go on and talk about some of the others?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. For me, the EFT-based tapping with scripts and keywords, and also using the using like the feelings in the body and getting into like even shame, for example, like it coils itself around us and we can it can hide. And so when we start to do deeper work, things can start to rise and it needs a place to go. And for me, the EFT base tapping and really sort of consciously saying, This is not my shame, this belongs to you, and you name the person and you see the person opposite you and you hand it back, and that might be just like feel it again because we acknowledge it first, we say I'm holding this shame, and I'm and when we tap, the body and the mind work really well together, and there's these different different key points. I acupuncture works into the same areas, you know, and it it just helps the body to go, oh, this is what we're doing now, it's safe for me, this is my space, it's safe for me to let these things move through. The brain gets involved because the brain is part of the body, they work together, the words that you say out loud, the body allowing things to move, you know, visualizing, seeing, handing the things back that were never ours to carry. Shame being the one we're talking about a lot today. And something happens, there is like a feeling of release, and when we do it with another person, we know we're held.

SPEAKER_01

And well, I do it in my women's circle, it is an EFT group, and so when you've got six, ten, twelve women all tapping and saying it together, we're all going through our own releasing of whatever we need to release, but everybody feels lighter as they leave after two hours together. Absolutely. So, again, you know, I I wanted you to share because you've done so much of this and you you practice it regularly. Whereas I just wanted to just say to everybody, yeah, it sounds woo-woo, but actually, modern medicine and whatever it doesn't work for all, it's not accessible for all. So, actually, this is just something that you can do either in a group with um a trauma-informed EFT practitioner, or just do it on your own. It is absolutely liberating.

SPEAKER_00

Um, yeah, and there's obviously there's a counselling route, which I've also done, which has been brilliant and really, really supportive. There are so many different forms. I think the thing with the holistic work is it's it's very much body, mind, spirit, and soul coming together, and that's really important, supplemented with other things often as well. And the thing with traditional medicine is that's often about suppressing the feelings, numbing, you know, minimalising it so people can function and actually cope with everyday life, and there's definitely a place for that. Um, it's not a route that I've ever taken because I felt like if I do that and start shutting down my emotions, I'll probably get really sick somewhere. So for me, that was never an option, even though I have thought about it so many times. Like maybe I should just take a pill, maybe I should take a pill, maybe that will help me with my pain. But actually, I always look at myself and go, You've got the tools, you you know who the people are to go to. No, that's not that's not the road that we are going to take. But I do see that for many that is their option. But I would say supplement it with other things, do the talking therapies, you know, just commit to yourself that no matter what, you will take care of your own needs because that's ultimately what we're here to do. We're here to heal and forget, yeah.

What Men Can Do Now

SPEAKER_01

Part of this podcast, us coming together was from you and I processing our stuff together. We were talking about it, and then we moved on to recording it. So even by listening to this podcast, you are doing some form of um self-healing, and then start writing. I'm an avid writer now, and as you know, I keep all my journals, I never go back and face them, but maybe one day I will. Um, but it's everything that I'm thinking, I'm feeling, I'm angry about, I'm remembering, and I'm getting it out there, and as I'm writing, it's making sense of stuff for me. Um, but you can equally um, you know, go and find specialist support. Um, one of my friends has done a lot of um healing, um, what we call womb healing and um hypnosis that takes her back to when she felt truly safe, so she can remember what it feels like to feel safe and from there move forward. So that everything is out there for all of us. Now, on another personal level, what you can also do is um join advocacy groups so that again, even you may not feel like you're ready to heal, but you might have this anger and you need it to go somewhere. So actually direct into um advocacy groups that are enabling others to make the change on your behalf. Maybe even write to your MP um for better cybercrime legislation or better legislation um when handling or managing victims of abuse in the legal process. There that whatever the thing is that you're angry about, there is a channel for you to join. And we will post some of the groups in the um the bio afterwards so that you've got all of them. But yeah, I just don't want you to feel like I've got all of these feelings and I don't know what to do about it because there's some of it is processing, some of it is getting into action and being able to do something. So the final bit then, go on, let's talk about the men. Apart from just stop hurting women, let's go there.

SPEAKER_00

What suggestions have you got for the men in our lives? As I was looking at this, I was like, oh my gosh, it's like when when girls get periods. So basically, you know, as a mother, I'm looking at Catalina and I'm seeing some little changes, and I'm like, I really want to make sure she is aware of um her body's going to change and what's going to happen before she has her first period. Um, that's really important to me. So she doesn't just have a period and be like, what the hell's happening to me? Um, I'm bleeding. So that's that. And then I was thinking about you know, this whole thing around looking at your children, you know, like so. That would be the thing for girls. Obviously, there are other things that we're looking out for as well. Um, but for for boys, it's like, watch your children, watch what they're doing, watch where they're spending their time, watch what they're playing on, watch what their behaviour's doing, watch your children, and watch them very closely and have the conversations before they're so far in. Because just as with the periods example, our kids need a certain amount of appropriate information before they get hooked onto things. And I think that's really, really important. And I honestly think that the days of just giving your kids like tablets and and headphones and letting them sit there. Because I see so many parents doing it everywhere you go, you know what I mean? The kids have got the headphones on, and they can probably see what they're what they're doing and what they're watching, but it's it's they're in their own silo, and so where's the engagement? So that's my thing. If we can take care of our children in a really good way, then we have hope because some of these men are too far gone down the line now.

SPEAKER_01

So that's I'll speak to the the men who are too far down the line, or or the grown-up men, should I say. Let's talk about the grown-up men. Um, because what I want you to do, men, is just to call out the bad behaviour. So if your friend is harassing women when you go out on a night, say, man, stop it. Let them have fun on their own. They don't need you being a jerk, and do it with your full gusto. Um, not like, you know, all kind of passive or make it into a jokey banter. Um, no, stand up to them, name it for what it is, just saying you're being a lech, you're being a creep, or why are you checking out that 14-year-old in a school uniform? That's gross, man. Stop it. Um, so that's the first thing. Men check your men. Um, we always say, you know, you are the five people you hang around with most. So make sure you surround yourself with good men. Um on International Women's Day, there was um a an event for men to go and learn how to plait their daughter's hair.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it was it was just phenomenal. And now these groups are opening up all over the the world, which is just phenomenal. And these are really great men who stand in their masculinity and they know themselves and how they want to be a role model for their sons and daughters. Be those men. Surround yourself with those men because the other ones who, you know, through group banter, peer pressure, staying silent when you're seeing the bad behaviours, all you're doing is supporting it and enabling it. So that's yeah, that's my first thing. Men, check your men. Be the menu as well.

SPEAKER_00

Like Rich, we went to ballet to take Catalina's ballet on Saturday, and there's Rich is a little bit ahead with Catalina holding a hand. He's got he's also got the dog, like, so how we managed all that, and he's got a bag, he's got a pink, um, like shoe, like really fancy girl thing. It's like a shoe bag and it's round, it's got ballets, and he's w holding this bag and he's walking along. And I was sort of a little bit further back, and I and I was looking at him thinking, Oh my god, that's just the cutest picture ever. So I took a quick picture because I was like, I I'm just in love with what I'm seeing. Like, there and he's totally oblivious to the fact that he's walking.

SPEAKER_01

And do you know what? There's nothing sexual.

SPEAKER_00

Because he doesn't care whether it's a pink bloody bag, but you know, like he he he's enough of a person in his own right, and he's he's got enough self-worth to not give a shit about something like that. And it that's the thing, it's like plaiting your you know, your daughter's hair. It's like there's just something really and I know it's it feels like a small gesture, yeah, but it it it's like showing up saying, 'I'm showing up for my daughter, I'm showing' and I'm yeah, of course I'm going to do that because why would I not? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Totally. And there are some, you know, um, on social media as well, there's some great influencers out there who are actually talking about the positive side of masculinity, of how to be a good man. Um, and so one of them um was brilliant. Well, this was actually a woman that was saying it was um uh an African woman, and she said, uh, well, it's quite simple, you know. If if you think you are going to rape um somebody, call for help. Tell your friend, help me, stop me from doing this, blow a whistle, get first aid to you know, stop you doing these uh dreadful things. And it's just like so simple, isn't it? It's like actually, if you think you're gonna rape somebody, don't get help, go get some help, seriously. Go get some help, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because there isn't that I remember doing a coaching thing on the streets once, and the one of the coaches went over to a guy who was homeless and said, You know, would you like to have a conversation? We're doing free coaching. And they started it started to you. So we did a coaching conversation on the street with this with this guy, and the guy said, Thank you so much, because when I go quiet, I know that's when I'm going to do something bad. But having the space to talk with you has helped me to sort of move through that, and now I know that I'm not gonna do it. Now what he was gonna do, no idea. Um but it's that, isn't it? It it's that. Like if you're men need to be able to talk to men. Take a look at yourself, see where how deep you're getting involved, and then think, hold on a minute, what do I need that's making me think that this is plausible and okay? What do I need to do? And then go do your work. Um, because that's it, it's the only way I can see. I I just don't know how how anyone can get out of this sort of crap without going doing your own personal work. As simple as that.

SPEAKER_01

Because this is Oh no, because they they need to do they need to do their work, but they also need male role models who are talking openly about them doing their own work. Um, whether it's them going to therapy or them reading books written by women. Well, who who'd have thought it, you know, um, because everything is still through the male gaze. Um, but when men watch, read, observe, listen to women's stories, they they start to grow some empathy. So um, even if it's on your Kindle so nobody sees what book you're actually reading, or you're listening to some women's podcasts, you know, send some of these to the men. Um, it helps them build empathy and to start to understand what it's like for their sisters, their wives, their mothers, uh, their daughters. Um, and I would also say to men, um, speak up when you're witnessing harmful behaviour. If you see a bloke treating a woman badly, even if you don't know them, they don't need to be your mates. But sometimes you just need to go over and just say to the woman, Are you okay?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Do you need do you need any help? Do you do you want to just take a pause here and focus your energy on her and just say, I'm here for you if you need it? Because there isn't this is the protective energy that we want from our men, just to say, you know, you're not going to start go and start a fight with him and put the energy on him. You're actually just going to make sure that I am safe first. Um Believe her. Don't try and mansplain statistics or data or belittle her or make gaslight her into saying what she's saying isn't true. If she's saying something about her lived experience, just believe her. You know, the number of times, well, um, why didn't she go to the police? Well, why don't you ask her? Why don't you just genuinely listen without judgment? Just be curious, why didn't you feel safe enough to go to the police? Because I've never been to the police with regards to any of my harassment um or assaults. And I have very valid reasons. Same. Yeah. So just ask. And for a lot of them, I didn't know the answer. I didn't know why I didn't, but actually now I know. Now you know the answers, though, don't you? Time gives you that. Yeah, absolutely. End of. Um, and the other thing I would say is men support women-led initiatives, call yourself a feminist, and for amplify the voices of women who are actually doing great work. Um because unfortunately, men don't really listen to women, but men listen to other men. So if you are supporting, amplifying, making really positive comments on posts about women's experiences or um advocating, men are more likely to then see it as a social norm that oh, okay, it's acceptable to behave like that. So just be that dude, please.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I I mean it that does bring up one thing for me, which is about if you are a woman who is struggling with this, then speak to your partner. Because if if he can't have the conversation with you, then there's a problem. Yeah. You know, I am speaking to Rich about this, he doesn't really want to talk about it, but I just can't help myself because I'm like, I it it's coming through, and I'm like, this is really affecting me. And he's he'll listen to me, he listens, it's Really have much to say, but he he does listen, and I know he digests and processes it all. Um we're just different in that way. But it is important that we can have these conversations with our partners because if we're living at home with somebody and we're going through something that's extremely painful, you can choose what you want to share, you know. You don't have to go into graphic details, but you can certainly say this is affecting me, I'm deeply upset. And what do you think? You know, that's what I said to Rich. I was like, What do you think? And he's like, I'm shocked. So we talked about this in the last one, but I do think it is important that we are able to have these conversations, and if if we can't, then we sort of need to ask questions about that. Because why should we start?

Support Resources And Closing Words

SPEAKER_01

And that's where we will put um things like end violence against women coalition or victim support, survivors trust, women's aid, we'll put all of those details um in our show notes because if you can't talk to your partner about it, or if they're the ones that are actually doing the harm, you need another outlet. Um, we are always here if you want to drop us a note. Um, but equally we will signpost you to where you can get some help. So that's the end of this conversation, and I've got to say, I do feel better than the last conversation because this one is a bit more hopeful. Like there are things that we can do to change this, um, these glimmers of hope. Um, but I'm gonna let you sign out, Karen.

SPEAKER_00

We want to say that we refuse to let the terror silence us, and we also agree to take time to process how we're feeling. We want collective action, vision, and support. We want to end this now, but we know that we've still got, you know, a big long journey ahead. And we want to say that we're here, we're healing, and nobody's alone in this work. We're all together. Thank you for listening and keep saying it, sister. Lovely. That does feel

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