Being Unapologetic Starts With One Honest No

We go deeper on what it means to be an unapologetic woman, especially the everyday moments where we abandon ourselves to keep the peace. We share real family and workplace examples of choosing ourselves with clarity, and we end by reframing unapologetic living as wise, steady leadership rather than selfishness. 
• noticing where we self-abandon to avoid conflict and stay “nice” 
• recognising the peacekeeper role and the cost of shrinking 
• naming hurt directly and resetting boundaries at home 
• challenging patriarchal leadership norms and the apologising “hangover” 
• reclaiming time with parents and family without guilt 
• stepping up at work without becoming a servant leader 
• breaking reactive habits with email and messaging boundaries 
• spotting micromanagement and responding with clear feedback 
• finding allies and building safe spaces where women are celebrated 

Yes please gather with women you know because like I said we put the worlds to rights we we just get crack on with it 

Send us a comment, ask a question, or suggest a topic. We would love to hear from you

Transcript

Welcome And Part Two

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back, sisters. We are here for part two of the Saint Sister podcast where two friends, two midlife women, get together every week to talk about the topics that are coming up with open hearts, sometimes a little bit of rage and frustration, but we gather and we share our conversations to help you find your own voices. So today we are continuing with the unapologetic woman, and we're gonna go a little bit deeper. And over to you, Karen. How are you this morning?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

I'm good. I just don't know what's wrong with me. I'm having the giggles. Um, so I'm having a morning of fits and giggles right now. So yeah, uh, happy laughing, always a joy to be here with you, and I'm I'm excited about this topic because I feel like it's one that we all need to address in our lives.

Where We Abandon Ourselves

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Well, that you've got a big question around abandonment. Yeah, where in our lives do we abandon ourselves to keep the peace?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Well, I've got a um when when you said this question earlier, I had this image or this scene from Friday Night Dinners. Have you watched it, Karen? No, it's just brilliant, it's just a very British family. Um, but there is the mum with two grown-up boys, and they come around for dinner every Friday, and it's just the dynamics of what goes on. But there's this one particular episode where the grandmother comes over for dinner, and um they're all ganging up on the mum. Um, and then you know, she you can see her getting more and more frustrated that nobody's taking her seriously, and so she ends up having a little bit of an argument with her mum, and she basically her mum says, You're being very naughty, go to your room, and she's there, she's like, No, I won't go to your room, and she keeps saying it three or four times. She says, I'm not, because I'm a grown-up and this is my house. And so, in the end, the grandmother goes and sits on the stairs in a sulk, and it just was perfect because it made me realise how often we actually abandon ourselves when we feel like everybody else is ganging up on us, or we don't want to create a scene until we absolutely create a scene because we just like I can't do this anymore. So, I mean it's comedic goals, um, but actually it's a really powerful point that the women generally are the peacekeepers. We've got to keep harmony, we don't want to cause a fuss, we don't want to sound too shrill or over-emotional. Um, and then yeah, I recognised I did well, I don't do it so much, but I still do it, I still abandon myself to keep the peace.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Yeah, it's reminded me of I told you about this, but like the other day when my daughter said, who's nearly eight, who was like, I don't want you in the room, mummy, can you go upstairs? I want to spend time on my own with daddy, and I was like, ugh, like arrow into the heart. Now there's a part of me that was like, brilliant, I guess to go upstairs and have some time out. So I kind of was like, one eye was open, one eye was closed, but the but the main part of me was like, My god, she's told me to go up to my room. And I was a bit like it took the wind out of my sails. So I kind of huffed out of the room, went upstairs for a bit, and was like, and I was just annoyed. And then when I went back downstairs, I said, actually, that actually really hurt my feeling, feelings. I I'm not okay with being told to go to my room.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Absolutely, you're a point.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

And then I went and spoke to Rich and said, you know what, this is not we we are stopping this now. Because if she wants to go to her room to have some space, then she can go do that. If you two want to go and have a day date or whatever, go do that. Like I celebrate that. But actually, it's the end of the day, and I want to sit in my own front room on the sofa and I want to relax. So when I left the room, I did it to sort of I think I did not to keep the pieces such, but it was more like I was in shock.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

But what it did do was give me that space to reset and go, actually, that's not acceptable. And I will go and have the conversations, like two difficult conversations, you know, when I'm hurting on the inside and have those conversations and get this cleared out and sorted. So I think for me, I think I've I've become quite good at facing into challenge, at not complying with things. Like, I'm not at a place in my life where I'm complaining that much anymore. I'm I'm mainly sort of like challenging stuff, standing up for myself, um, saying no, but I definitely haven't always been like that. And I feel like the world at the moment, we're in a moment of reckoning. And I've been getting these real thunderbolts of clarity recently, you know, and seeing patterns that once were invisible, and now I'm starting to see them, and I'm starting to see how the importance of being really true to ourselves and sort of looking in and going, oh, that hurts a little bit, because sometimes there's pain in there, that does hurt, and yet I have to go in to that and look at it and just work out what it is, what's the need that's in there, like

Saying It Hurt Without Shrinking

SPEAKER_00 5:03

what do I really need? And if I don't do that work and I shut it down, then that that will continue as a block. And then the more we do that, and the more that we do that, and the more that and we can do this all our life if we choose to, but we become like shells of ourselves, and we are not our true self, and we're not also not showing ourselves truly to the people we love, and it can become a habit. And I feel like for me, like as someone who's always said yes to the healing journey and doing the the hard work, I still realise how much work there is still to be done, you know. The places that I've shut myself off and you know, from experiences now. I'm like something's happening at 50 where I'm like if I see it, I'm going in and I will do what I need to do, but I'm not going to um I'm not going to apologize for it. I'm going to speak truthfully and I'm going to ask for what I need. And then I'll take the next step from there. And I feel like we've all grown up in this patriarchal world where there's a top table and there's a hierarchy, and mostly men sit at this table, and then women come in and they're invited to the table, but they have to behave like men and they have to fit that masculine model of leadership, and they become servant leaders, and they're serving, and they're serving, and they're serving, and they're very purpose-driven, there's a lot of self-sacrifice and a lot of hard work, and they're giving everything, and often at the cost of themselves, and they are not plugged into themselves because it's very hard to do that because the demands are so great, and so giving, giving, giving, and then there's other roles that we're doing the same with, and our natural leadership qualities get suppressed. Our intuition, our how we relate to each other, you know, the cynical, um it we become quite cynical, but also we forget about the cycles we're in, we forget about our emotions, or we try to, and then everything gets minimalized, we get diminished, and we we just sort of struggling in that really because it comes a point when we just can't really do it anymore, and that's what we're seeing in the world. Like women are going, I don't want this, don't want this role, don't want this, it's too much, they're burning out, they're quitting, they're they're gonna start over somewhere, that's the positive, but it's like we're in this pattern and we're seeing it and we're experiencing it, and we've lost that connection to who we really are, and this conditioning is so deep. And unless we sort of say, All right, hold on, I have to come back in, this is who I am, I am here. Start to unlike plug it all and do the work, and it doesn't involve shrinking, it doesn't involve being compliant, and just even just saying that out loud, it gives me such such great great hope because there is this awakening, there is this rebuilding that's going on, and we're part of that, and like we're sitting at this table, you know, that's a different type of table, and we're just I've gotta say this needs to be your TED talk because you can talk and talk and talk about this. I took up a lot of space and I'm apologizing, and I I I will take that back.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Every single thing you said was spot on, but I'm gonna give you a chance just to take a pause, and uh but it was awesome because that is what it looks like when a woman gets to speak her truth um rather than holding back and thinking, oh, I just need to tone it down. No, name what the problems are, name what the issues are if we carry on down this road um and what the consequences are. So, yes, go, Karen. I loved that. Um, and when you listen back, you're just like, Did that did that really flow from me? Because absolutely it did, it was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

And it is, but it's that's showing what how it is when we are in flow, when we are giving when we, you know, take the floor, we're in flow, it's natural that we are able to speak like that and to talk like that. And that's really what the world needs, you know. And that is about I mean, I did apologize afterwards, but I I wish I could like, you know, so there is still some work. What I'm trying to say is I still have to work on it because immediately I go, oh god, was that too much? You know, so it was absolutely not fully there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

No, and and again, that's great awareness because we all need to do that. Um, that again, that little bit of a hangover. Um, but had there have been probably uh a man in the space, if you were doing that on a round table, he would have interrupted you a long time ago or taken one or two phrases that you said and then said them as though they were his own. So uh I gave you the floor, um, it needed to be said, and I and I have to say that um whenever I get together with women and we put the world to rights, um everything that we say is on point and spot on. Um, and so actually, we have this collective wisdom, we actually know a lot of stuff, we have lived experience, but we've also got all of the generational stuff that is within us. Um, and we do need to take up space and not abandon ourselves or not second guess, is it the right time to say it? No, something needs to be said, say it. If you need to write something, write it if you need to act in a certain way. Don't abandon yourself because we've just seen what happens when somebody is in flow and it's it's awesome.

Boundaries With Family And Work

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Um, I wanted to just give um an example of where I noticed over the last maybe 10 years that I've started being um unapologetic, and it's to do with family dynamics uh again. And I think when I became well, in my 20s, I used to be really annoyed at my mum because she was still trying to interfere and tell me how to live my life, and now I've got children of that age, I'm like, yeah, I get why she was doing it, it's hard to let go. Then during my 30s, when I was a mum myself, um, every time there was um a comment or uh a behaviour, I would get really angry and frustrated, and to the point where I actually I loved my mum and I appreciated her looking after my children, da da da, but it was all done on her terms. And during my 40s, I think that's when I started to readdress stuff and start saying, No, actually, no, I don't want to do that, or no, I'm not behaving that way. So, a really simple example came up this weekend um because she and my dad have decided that they want to come over to my house. Um, and they said, Well, coming over Sunday morning, uh, we'll be there about 10:30. And it wasn't uh, is it okay? Will you be in? It was like, we are doing this and we will see you at that time. That totally normal transactional language from the parents, and I just said, Yes, you can. I won't be there though. And I said, I will be at the gym, and then I'm going to the shop. So when I get back, I'll be quite busy, but you're very welcome to come over. And they're like, Oh, I'm like, but it's the girls you're coming to see. I'm like, Oh, yes, of course. And it for me, I was like, Yes, I did it because actually, me if even five years ago, I'd have said, I'll tell you what, I'll cancel the gym, um, I'll go shopping later. And I'd have allowed it to completely disrupt my day, and actually, it was all fine. Everybody had a nice time. I managed to have a cup of coffee with them afterwards, and these are like the really small little reclaiming so you don't abandon yourself to actions that you can do every day in work, in your hobbies, in your sports teams, in your loved ones' relationships. Every every day you can practice this.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

And it's interesting because it seems like a small thing, but I don't think it is, I think it's huge. And I see this in my coaching work with women, where we actually start to look at decisions that are being made and decisions that are not being made, and sometimes it's because it's I don't want to disappoint my mum or I don't want to let my mum down, and my mum's getting older, and these things are coming up with women in their mid-50s, you know, and they'll take a new role on, and then and they haven't told their mum yet because then their mum's, you know, their mum's not going to be happy about the fact that they're gonna be traveling more or whatever, and I'm like, you know, and they know, and we we do it with lightness, you know, but it's like, what are you unplugging from in this moment so that you can go out and unapologetically live your life? So it feels like a small thing on the on the wide scheme of things, actually, it's huge, and I think it's that fight for independence that um it's almost like we don't want to we don't want to disappoint people or let people down, and that energy can stop us from fully living and expressing ourselves in our lives. Right. Maybe we make those decisions anyway. I always say to them, but have you always made the decisions? And they're like, Yeah, yeah, I've always gone and done it anyway. And I'm like, Yeah, me too. You know, like, but we can live from a place of I think greater intention when we go, This is my life, and I'm living it fully, and I'm not apologizing as opposed to feeling like we've we're letting someone down behind the scenes, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Um, I think it's um a really good reflection in the workplace as well, because especially if you have, let's say you're going for um another job within the organization where they've known you maybe as um more apologetic, um less assertive, more in a potentially a more junior role, and then you decide that you want to step up and take more responsibility uh to be more unapologetic in your leadership style, to speak at that meeting. It takes so much courage when you are within that organization where power and hierarchy still really matter, that your job, your pay, your stability is dependent on doing well in that organization, and to be unapologetic. I mean, that is really courageous, and it speaks to the whole patriarchal um thing that you were talking about earlier, and that's why we say we we need a lot of courageous women, uh, we need bold, courageous women, but actually, we don't, we need more wise women who know this is truth for me, I will not be treated that way. Um, and also look at the different options of how is my best approach to fix this or resolve this. Um, because the the upshot of it all is if you carry on down a path and continue being apologetic and serving others, you are going to be in burnout because the environment will just take and take and take and take. Or you can be part of that wise leader who actually starts to change the way that people respond to you, the way that you um respond to them, the way that you lead. And if it still doesn't want to change, go start something yourself. Go and find a table that welcomes you, that appreciates you.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Absolutely. And I and I, you know, like going back to my own, my own corporate career, I was always like, what's this serving and what's the impact of that? Because I think unless we're keeping an eye on that, we can quite easily just get caught up in the churn, you know. And I hear that where women, senior women, leave, go to another global company, and they're like, it's relentless, like the level of emails, it's relentless, and it's 24-7. People are emailing at all times of the night. Now, I've worked in those organizations as well, but like most of what is churning out is of no value. Absolutely. That's when it becomes really, really terrifying, and I think it it takes the bold, and this is where the boldness does come in to say that's all well and good, but this is not actually leading us anywhere. Because this is now just covering arsees, um, all the multiple CCs to show that we are on it. I'm just drained already. Yeah, and so that old school, you know, in its old school, it's like, well, who's at the desk later? Who sits at their desk and who's there at the end of end of the evening or whatever it was? And I've worked in those organizations where I I would look around.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

It's still only the willy waggling, isn't it? And we haven't got willies, we don't know the need to waggle.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

No, and I and I've worked in companies where I thought, unless I if I right, am I willing to stay here till like half past eight, nine o'clock at night with the other people and my level? Because if I don't, I'm not gonna get promoted. Um, so simple choice making on my part, you know, when you're at that manager level, and I just used to look at them and think, no, I'm not staying, I'm out the door. See everybody, bye, bye. Skipping out the door, you know, and I just think I'm going nowhere with this company, but I'd be really great at my job, and then I'd always go find something else because I just think if that's how you're gonna recognise talent, that's not gonna keep me in this

Escaping The Reactive System

SPEAKER_00 17:47

seat, so therefore I leave.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Last week I did um a workshop on strategic foresight and how to um be more proactive, not reactive, and one of the examples I gave, I talked about how we live in zones, and the reactive one is the one who actually gets uh led by their email inbox. So you might be deep in a piece of work and then a ping comes in and you stop what you're doing, you shift your attention, and then you start reacting to that. And I said that if your CEO, your MD, turned around and said, I only look at my emails at 11 o'clock in the morning for half an hour, and then again at five o'clock to tidy them up, and I will respond as and when the priority is. Would you think that they were weak, that they weren't uh doing a good job? And they all agreed that no, we'd actually think they were being quite strong, bold, unapologetic, and they were leading. I said, So why don't you look at that as your role model? And they were like, because we've trained ourselves to be pleasers, and I was reacting. And then on Saturday, as you are aware, um I was in Brighton picking up my daughter from uni, and uh, and just as I got to Brighton, I think everybody must have just woken up because I started getting beep, beep, beep, beeping on the WhatsApp. And then once I pulled up in the car, I just said to everybody, I'm in Brighton, we'll respond later. And I think I even said that to you as well. I did, I loved it. I was just like, I'm just being really clear. I am having a day doing something else. I'm not on WhatsApp responding today, and that to me is an act of being unapologetic. Love it. If you needed me, he'd pick up the phone and say, No, Lucy, I really need to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

But actually, it was just chat. I love it, and I feel like what we're saying now is so for us to be unapologetic, there needs to be, we need to have a deeper understanding of the structure, we need to go and move towards places where we can be unapologetic and we can be appreciated for that. Because if we become a slave to the system, which is what so many people get caught up in doing, and it is the way that so many things are built, then we are just another person in the churn. And it's quite hard to be an apologetic there. You mean you can do it, but you've got to have the support of the people around you, your peers. You know, it kind of is you can't. I have created like almost like micro systems within bigger systems for my teams and different ways of working, and I've but I've had to get the approval from the person at the very, very top to say, I've got this thing, this is what I want to do with my team. Is that okay with you? And they've said, go ahead, make it work, do your own thing. We see what you're doing, and the results are great. So continue. So we can do that, but we have to sort of like get the buy in, and maybe that culture can shift into something else, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

So I'm kind of going off on a tangent here, but I feel I get what you're saying, you know, in a societal structure, even if it is a team dynamic, um, if you are the one who is just saying no, no, no constantly, um, actually you're you're the outlier, and you're disrupting the team, the culture, cultural cohesion. However, if you get allies on board, then you can make a change. And I think that there's some statistics um that it only takes 3.3% of the people to make a meaningful change. You can't do this on your own, but actually within your household, within your friendship groups, within your personal relationships, even the relationship with yourself, actually you can just make those changes. Absolutely. So I do think so.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

And you know, and it's just going back to like I remember in one of my jobs, my boss would say, Oh, I I mean my boss would sit opposite me and he would be-I mean, he could have just said Karen at X, Y, and Z, but he's emailing me, and he was just like you there, you know, and I'd be like working and I'm getting pinged, and then he would go on holiday. I would get more emails when he was on holiday than I did when he was in the office. So when he went away, I'd be like, Oh, this is gonna and I had so much to do because I had a global job, like so much process, so many like people like had to sort of honestly, it was a huge job. And I was working with Australia and I was working with New Zealand, and he would go on holiday and think, This is gonna be a nice. nightmare because what's the status on this? What's the status on that? And I was I used to say I don't have like basically I need a job just to I need a job, I need a no, I need a s an assistant just to respond to your emails. That doesn't help me to do my job.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

So it was like and he just took such great joy out of just sending me emails, asking for status updates. I used to just think, but just you can ask me a question. We'd have meetings as well. I was just used to be like sitting there thinking this is like sucking the light out of my soul.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

No, that is somebody who is a micromanager who has real fear and control issues and I see it all the time like what are you trying to serve? And it's literally just an idea has popped in their head. I wonder how that's going on. I need to know I need to know and it's really that is what we call micromanagement. And yeah unapologetic Karen needs to say do you know you're actually hindering my performance every time you get get send an email for an update you're actually preventing me from getting the work done. And that's what unapologetic looks like rather than um being apologetic and just responding because again like you said you're just training yourself and everybody else to be in that system. Absolutely so um we are now coming to the end of this conversation but I just wanted to see is there anything that we've not spoken about in the last two episodes that you think we need to land this.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

I think it's about being really conscious about where we put our energy and our attention like the companies we work for the teams we're in the people we hire whatever it might be because actually if we're talking about being unapologetic it does impact everybody around us and it's just making sure for me like we go towards the spaces where they want that they like that where we are celebrated for that because I think otherwise you know what what I often see is like you know you can do all this amazing work but then the system doesn't want it and they're just going to come down on you. And that's exhausting and that's when we see the burnout you know they're just like women just I don't know who I am anymore. They're so despondent and that's very very dangerous. So it there's something about being really really conscious about it and and making sure you know it's like to be known by the company you keep was something that my old boss used to say like you know like who we associate with the conversations we have all of that we get known by that and there's a there's something that spreads outwards. So in our work we're building that we're building that safe space we're building that environment where women can come and be unapologetic and really look at their lives it's a very safe supportive space not we're not cheerleading going whoop we're not whooping you know it's it's really just about holding the space so that they can try that on and then see the impact of that and feel how it feels and then look at their lives and go okay so what where do I need to redesign where do I need to um you know what do I need to leave behind so that I can fully claim myself this is the place to do the work and then you yeah you cascade out from there.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

I love our gatherings when we gather with the the women in the um the unapologetic group because um as soon as they arrive they're like they take off all the marsh they take off all of the coulda shoulda wouldays and they they say I don't want this anymore or this is what I want and everyone's like yeah it's literally yeah okay let's get on with it or I hear you why wouldn't you want that? And it is just like there's none of that um that system stuff outside getting in it's just like yeah let's do it let's work on it it's phenomenal um so yes please gather with women you know because like I said we put the worlds to rights we we just get crack on with it and if we're not invited into that system let's go make our own. So with that spirit thank you for um naming that at the end um yeah it's been a great couple of conversations that we've gone through and I hope you know that being unapologetic isn't being selfish it's uh it's not about being a bitch it's not about being alpha you can actually just choose yourself in a whisper you can be you can say it in a text you can choose yourself every single day but the first thing to do is just be conscious what are you actually choosing for yourself why are you saying yes when you mean no and why are you saying no when you mean yes um so be aware be conscious and start putting at least one need for yourself each and every day. With love, say it sister